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Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

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mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:42 pm Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

Hi,



Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselage.



I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas 

where your feet are.



In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the 

baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage from 

flying about.



Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint



One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front of 

the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery



Thanks



Mike

wschertz(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

I used a spray paint (rattle can) for the interior roof and doors. Spray on 

a coat of high build gray primer, then spray on a product that is locally 

called 'trunk paint'. It resembles Zolatone, is gray with white flecks in 

it. Needs the gray primer underneath to look good. I then overcoated it with 

spray polyurethane to increase the durability. It ended up looking good, and 

has been durable.

--

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:29 pm Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

I used zolatone.  It has held up pretty well, but acetone will wipe it off.  I did not prime before application.  I would recommend primer, saves a lot of zolatone.   



It might be worth looking into the flamability of what ever you use.



Scott.  



On Sep 30, 2013, at 6:42 PM, "Mike Pienaar" <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi,

 

 Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselage.

 

 I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas where your feet are.

 

 In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage from flying about.

 

 Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint

 

 One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front of the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery

 

 Thanks

 

 Mike

mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:38 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

Hi Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.  Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.  Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.



This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark K.

--

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:12 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

Mark,

 

I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight issues.

 

The plan which I have already partially completed  is to use a layer of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the foam.  

 

Bob Reed  

     

   From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM

 Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

  

 

 --> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.  Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.  Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to  normal paint.



This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark K.

--

fredorosa(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:25 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

You may also consider adding sound damping material to the inside of the cowling. 



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net> wrote:

 

 Mark,

  

 I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight issues.

  

 The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the foam.  

  

 Bob Reed  

 

 From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM

 Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

 

 

 

 Hi Mike,

 

 You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.  Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.  Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.

 

 If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.

 

 This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.

 

 My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.

 

 Mark K.

 

 

 --

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:43 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

Al,

 

Hadn't thought of that but I will look into it.  I have also considered the possibility of adding a muffler as is required in Europe.  There is no reason whey these planes have to be so loud.

 

BOB

     

   From: Alfred Rosa  <fredorosa(at)gmail.com>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 11:25 AM

 Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

  

 

 You may also consider adding sound damping material to the inside of the cowling. 



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

[quote]Mark,

 

I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more  exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight issues.

 

The plan which I have already partially completed  is to use a layer of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the foam.  

 

Bob Reed  

     

   From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM

 Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

  

 

 --> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.  Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.  Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB  to 2dB reduction compared to  normal paint.



This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark K.

--

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:28 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.  I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.  



The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the firewall on the TR-4 project.



Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty loud.



One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  



Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   



If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/



Scott



On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net> wrote:



[quote] Mark,

  

 I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight issues.

  

 The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the foam.  

  

 Bob Reed  

 

 From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM

 Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

 

 

 

 Hi Mike,

 

 You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.  Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.  Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.

 

 If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.

 

 This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.

 

 My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.

 

 Mark K.

 

 

 --

fredorosa(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:38 pm Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

The 2 loudest sources of airplane noise are the prop and the exhaust pipe.  There is an muffler and pipe combination that extends underneath the fuselage to exit the gases beneath the baggage compartment.  It's used in Europe a lot.  



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 1, 2013, at 3:28 PM, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote]I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.  I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.  

The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the firewall on the TR-4 project.

Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty loud.

One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  

Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   

If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/



Scott



On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:



[quote]Mark,

 

I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight issues.

 

The plan which I have already partially completed  is to use a layer of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the foam.  

 

Bob Reed  

     

   From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM

 Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

  

 

 --> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.  Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.  Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to  normal paint.



This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark K.

--

ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:05 pm Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the  music audio business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so  he could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of  little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind  screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the  thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single  windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza  mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1.  As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at  least. 

  

 My vote, since you asked , is for ear plugs and noise  canceling headsets. Save time, money and go faster!

  

 Tim 



   From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott  Stearns

Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of  the fuselage of a TR4

 

 I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel  well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I  sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not  notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.   I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.   

 



 The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in  the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the  firewall on the TR-4 project.

 



 Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a  really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice  interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise  cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends  super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost  sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty  loud.

 



 One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen  system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is  pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the  end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  

 



 Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   

 



 If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/ 



 Scott

 



 



 



 



 

On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

 

 [quote]         Mark,

    

   I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished    and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are    building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross    country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't    take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more    exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife    getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for    her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound    absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight    issues.

    

   The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer    of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This    includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead    top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be    covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas    that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4"    fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test    and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the    1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of    the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the    foam.  

    

   Bob Reed  

   



            

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38    AM

Subject: Re: KIS-List:    Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4



   

--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark    Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi    Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice    and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the    more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued    with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet"    that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.     Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.     Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal    paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types    of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and    transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give    about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.



This may not sound    like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are    using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing    the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of    hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause    hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double    the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB    total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the    headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can    make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB    in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark    K.

--

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:59 pm Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

I should add that the lancair ES I talked about also had the 3/8" wimdshield from the lancair IV.

A 1/4 inch windshield for the TR-1 was about $500 when I asked a few years ago.  I stayed with the 

1/8" I had. 

Scott





On Oct 1, 2013, at 5:05 PM, "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:



[quote]     I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the  music audio business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so  he could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of  little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind  screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the  thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single  windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza  mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1.  As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at  least. 

  

 My vote, since you asked , is for ear plugs and noise  canceling headsets. Save time, money and go faster!

  

 Tim 



   From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott  Stearns

Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of  the fuselage of a TR4

 

 I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel  well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I  sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not  notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.   I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.   

 



 The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in  the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the  firewall on the TR-4 project.

 



 Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a  really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice  interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise  cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends  super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost  sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty  loud.

 



 One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen  system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is  pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the  end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  

 



 Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   

 



 If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/ 



 Scott

 



 



 



 



 

On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

 

 [quote]         Mark,

    

   I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished    and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are    building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross    country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't    take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more    exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife    getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for    her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound    absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight    issues.

    

   The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer    of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This    includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead    top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be    covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas    that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4"    fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test    and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the    1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of    the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the    foam.  

    

   Bob Reed  

   



            

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38    AM

Subject: Re:    Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4



   

--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark    Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi    Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice    and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the    more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued    with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet"    that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.     Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.     Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal    paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types    of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and    transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give    about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.



This may not sound    like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are    using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing    the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of    hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause    hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double    the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB    total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the    headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can    make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB    in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark    K.

--

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

Well, Just bonded my windscreen in place this last Sunday and I am committed to it now.  Will just have to make the best effort and see where it leads.  I hope the wife will be able to use some of the newer headsets without the problems she had in the past.  There is only so much that can be justified.

 

BOB

     

   From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 8:58 PM

 Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

  

 

 I should add that the lancair ES I talked about also had the 3/8" wimdshield from the lancair IV.

A 1/4 inch windshield for the TR-1 was about $500 when I asked a few years ago.  I stayed with the 

1/8" I had. 

Scott





On Oct 1, 2013, at 5:05 PM, "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:



[quote]       I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the  music audio business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so  he could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of  little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind  screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the  thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single  windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza  mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1.  As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at  least. 

  

 My vote, since you asked , is for ear plugs and noise  canceling headsets. Save time, money and go faster!

  

 Tim 



  

 From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott  Stearns

Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of  the fuselage of a TR4

 

 I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel  well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I  sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not  notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.   I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.   

 



 The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in  the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the  firewall on the TR-4 project.

 



 Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a  really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice  interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise  cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends  super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost  sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty  loud.

 



 One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen  system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is  pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the  end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  

 



 Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   

 



 If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/ 



 Scott

 



 



 



 



 

On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

 

 [quote]         Mark,

    

   I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished    and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are    building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross    country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't    take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more    exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife    getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for    her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound    absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight    issues.

    

   The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer    of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This    includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead    top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be    covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas    that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4"    fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test    and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the    1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of    the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the    foam.  

    

   Bob Reed  

   



            

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38    AM

Subject: Re:    Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4



   

--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark    Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi    Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice    and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the    more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued    with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet"    that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.     Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.     Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal    paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types    of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and    transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give    about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.



This may not sound    like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are    using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing    the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of    hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause    hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double    the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB    total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the    headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can    make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB    in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark    K.

--

fredorosa(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:49 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

Scott,  are you sure your windshield is not 3/16ths?  My TR4 came with 1/8 th inch side windows but the windscreen is thicker. 

Al

Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote]I should add that the lancair ES I talked about also had the 3/8" wimdshield from the lancair IV.

A 1/4 inch windshield for the TR-1 was about $500 when I asked a few years ago.  I stayed with the 

1/8" I had. 

Scott





On Oct 1, 2013, at 5:05 PM, "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:



[quote]     I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the  music audio business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so  he could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of  little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind  screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the  thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single  windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza  mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1.  As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at  least. 

  

 My vote, since you asked , is for ear plugs and noise  canceling headsets. Save time, money and go faster!

  

 Tim 



   From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Scott  Stearns

Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of  the fuselage of a TR4

 

 I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel  well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I  sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not  notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.   I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.   

 



 The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in  the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the  firewall on the TR-4 project.

 



 Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a  really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice  interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise  cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends  super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost  sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty  loud.

 



 One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen  system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is  pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the  end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  

 



 Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   

 



 If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/ 



 Scott

 



 



 



 



 

On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

 

 [quote]         Mark,

    

   I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished    and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are    building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross    country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't    take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more    exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife    getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for    her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound    absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight    issues.

    

   The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer    of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This    includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead    top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be    covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas    that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4"    fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test    and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the    1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of    the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the    foam.  

    

   Bob Reed  

   



            

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38    AM

Subject: Re:    Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4



   

--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark    Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi    Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice    and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the    more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued    with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet"    that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.     Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.     Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal    paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types    of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and    transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give    about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.



This may not sound    like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are    using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing    the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of    hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause    hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double    the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB    total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the    headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can    make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB    in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark    K.

--

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:19 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

I agree with Tim. I switched to good ANR headset and the difference is very noticeable. I feel spending the $$$ on a good ANR headset instead of permanent noise insulation is a better value. Even in a well insulated airplane, most pilots will wind up going with a good ANR headset anyways. Airplanes are noisy.

   

Also, look into the "in the ear" headset like the Clarity Aloft or the QT Halos. For some people the comfort is better, noise reduction is just as good as an ANR, you can wear glasses without change in the noise level and your hair doesn't get messed up.

   

Galin



On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:

  [quote]     I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the  music audio business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so  he could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of  little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind  screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the  thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single  windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza  mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1.  As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at  least. 

  

 My vote, since you asked , is for ear plugs and noise  canceling headsets. Save time, money and go faster!

  

 Tim 



   From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Scott  Stearns

Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of  the fuselage of a TR4





 

 I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel  well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I  sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not  notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.   I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.   

 



 The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in  the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the  firewall on the TR-4 project.

 



 Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a  really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice  interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise  cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends  super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost  sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty  loud.

 



 One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen  system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is  pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the  end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  

 



 Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   

 



 If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/ 



 Scott

 



 



 



 



 

On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

 

 



[quote]         Mark,

    

   I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished    and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are    building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross    country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't    take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more    exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife    getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for    her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound    absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight    issues.

    

   The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer    of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This    includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead    top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be    covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas    that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4"    fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test    and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the    1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of    the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the    foam.  

    

   Bob Reed  

   



            

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

  To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38    AM

Subject: Re: KIS-List:    Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4



   

--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark    Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi    Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice    and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the    more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued    with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet"    that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.     Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.     Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal    paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types    of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and    transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give    about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.



This may not sound    like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are    using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing    the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of    hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause    hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double    the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB    total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the    headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can    make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB    in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark    K.

--

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:35 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

That last statement sells it for me...can't have my hair getting messed up!   



Bob Reed

Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 2, 2013, at 7:18 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]I agree with Tim. I switched to good ANR headset and the difference is very noticeable. I feel spending the $$$ on a good ANR headset instead of permanent noise insulation is a better value. Even in a well insulated airplane, most pilots will wind up going with a good ANR headset anyways. Airplanes are noisy.

   

Also, look into the "in the ear" headset like the Clarity Aloft or the QT Halos. For some people the comfort is better, noise reduction is just as good as an ANR, you can wear glasses without change in the noise level and your hair doesn't get messed up.

   

Galin



On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:

  [quote]     I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the  music audio business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so  he could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of  little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind  screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the  thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single  windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza  mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1.  As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at  least. 

  

 My vote, since you asked , is for ear plugs and noise  canceling headsets. Save time, money and go faster!

  

 Tim 



   From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Scott  Stearns

Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of  the fuselage of a TR4





 

 I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel  well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I  sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not  notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.   I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.   

 



 The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in  the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the  firewall on the TR-4 project.

 



 Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a  really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice  interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise  cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends  super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost  sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty  loud.

 



 One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen  system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is  pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the  end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  

 



 Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   

 



 If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/ 



 Scott

 



 



 



 



 

On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

 

 



[quote]         Mark,

    

   I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished    and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are    building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross    country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't    take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more    exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife    getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for    her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound    absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight    issues.

    

   The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer    of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This    includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead    top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be    covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas    that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4"    fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test    and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the    1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of    the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the    foam.  

    

   Bob Reed  

   



            

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

  To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38    AM

Subject: Re:    Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4



   

--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark    Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi    Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice    and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the    more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued    with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet"    that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.     Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.     Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal    paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types    of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and    transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give    about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.



This may not sound    like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are    using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing    the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of    hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause    hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double    the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB    total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the    headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can    make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB    in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark    K.

--

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:09 am Post subject: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4

I was talking about my TR-1.  You might be right about the cruiser windshield.  I have not looked at it yet.

Scott





On Oct 2, 2013, at 4:43 AM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa(at)gmail.com (fredorosa(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



[quote]Scott,  are you sure your windshield is not 3/16ths?  My TR4 came with 1/8 th inch side windows but the windscreen is thicker. 

Al

Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote]I should add that the lancair ES I talked about also had the 3/8" wimdshield from the lancair IV.

A 1/4 inch windshield for the TR-1 was about $500 when I asked a few years ago.  I stayed with the 

1/8" I had. 

Scott





On Oct 1, 2013, at 5:05 PM, "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com (ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com)> wrote:



[quote]     I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the  music audio business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so  he could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of  little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind  screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the  thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single  windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza  mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1.  As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at  least. 

  

 My vote, since you asked , is for ear plugs and noise  canceling headsets. Save time, money and go faster!

  

 Tim 



   From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Scott  Stearns

Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Finishing the inside of  the fuselage of a TR4

 

 I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel  well area of my corvette with a noticable  reduction in road noise.  I  sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1.  I did not  notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already.   I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.   

 



 The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in  the overall sound insulation plan.  I plan to put it on both sides of the  firewall on the TR-4 project.

 



 Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.   A friend has a  really nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice  interior, but it is still quite loud inside.  We wear earplugs under noise  cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends  super insulated Lancair.  It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost  sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty  loud.

 



 One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen  system.  A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is  pretty cheap.    And they make cool little devices that clip to the  end of your finger to show blood oxygen levels.  

 



 Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.   

 



 If you are interested...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/ 



 Scott

 



 



 



 



 

On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

 

 [quote]         Mark,

    

   I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished    and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.  If you are    building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross    country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.  It didn't    take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more    exhausting the trip.  In my case, I have the added issue of my wife    getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for    her.  For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound    absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight    issues.

    

   The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer    of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.  This    includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.  The baggage bulkhead    top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.  The floor will be    covered with foam and carpet.  I will use some paint but only in areas    that are not easily covered.  The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4"    fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.  I did the fire test    and it does not burn.  The 1/4" will be used where possible but the    1/8" works well on Overhead.  The foam will be bonded to the inside of    the fuselage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the    foam.  

    

   Bob Reed  

   



            

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38    AM

Subject: Re: KIS-List:    Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4



   

--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark    Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hi    Mike,



You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice    and methods.  The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the    more it will reduce the sound.  Even thin carpet can help.  Glued    with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet"    that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.     Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.     Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal    paint.



If you are going the paint route they make many different types    of sound absorbing paint.  These paints reduce both reflection and    transmission.  A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give    about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.



This may not sound    like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are    using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing    the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of    hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause    hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about double    the hearing loss rate.  So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB    total you are near the limit for hearing loss.  Reduce the sealing of the    headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.  That added 3dB can    make a difference even if you hardly notice it.



My Tr-1 is about 112 dB    in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.



Mark    K.

--

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