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BarryH

Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:41 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

Can anyone tell me if the wing will drop out with the gear in place on a tricycle gear TR-1? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

On mine it will but it is not an easy fit.  Some light bending of the wing skins and a little force are needed. But each build is a little different.

--

Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:07 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

Yes ,  it can be dropped out with all the gear in place,  i did it on many

occassions during the build , and once  after the  completion.



Keith



From:	Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>

To:	kis-list(at)matronics.com,

Date:	10/29/2013 02:42 AM

Subject:	Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Sent by:	owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com




On mine it will but it is not an easy fit.  Some light bending of the wing

skins and a little force are needed. But each build is a little different.

--

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:59 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

Here is a picture of the wing removal tool I built.  It has 4x4s at the corners and is on wheels.  The vertical 2x4s should be vertical and not angled like the picture.  The wing drops out of the fuselage and slips between the 2x4s before it comes out of the fuselage so the wing is always supported.  It is also really nice to have the wing on wheels.

 

It makes it a one man job and pretty low stress.  The wing probably went on with the gear on so it should come off.

 

Scott

 

 

     On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:13 AM, "Keith.Miller(at)esa.int" <Keith.Miller(at)esa.int> wrote:

  

  --> KIS-List message posted by: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)



Yes ,  it can be dropped out with all the gear in place,  i did it on many

occassions during the build , and once  after the  completion.



Keith



From:    Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

To:    kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com),

Date:    10/29/2013 02:42 AM

Subject:    Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Sent by:    owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)



--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

On mine it will but it is not an easy fit.  Some light bending of the wing

skins and a little force are needed. But each build is a little different.

--

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mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:06 pm Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

All I can say is that picture makes me want a Yak.



And I love your tail wheel stand.



And your wing tool is very cool.  I think I will be making one.

--

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:56 pm Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

The Yak is for sale.  Price is about $1M  but open to offers.  1600 HP R-2000.  It will just walk away from anything with a propeller short of the gold class at reno.  It really pisses the mustang crowd off.  "work of art" build quality.



Scott



On Oct 29, 2013, at 7:06 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 

 All I can say is that picture makes me want a Yak.

 

 And I love your tail wheel stand.

 

 And your wing tool is very cool.  I think I will be making one.

 

 

 --

BarryH

Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Thanks guys for the information. I just purchased a TR-1 and i am going to get it this weekend. Need to transport it home as it is not currently airworthy. That will make it much easier not having to remove the gear. I also have seen where some people have had some of the wing spar bolts seized as well. Hopefully this is not the case. This plane has been out in the weather for about 9 years though.

mark_trickel

Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 101
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Hello Barry,



Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the fraternity. Without a question you got the best bang for your buck despite any problems you may encounter. On this forum are plenty of qualified individuals that can help you with any need. 



You might want to be packing a Sawzall just in case the main spar bolts are seized in place. There should be just enough room to get the blade between the spar and the fuselage spar box. The penalty would be the loss of the aluminum flanged bushings in the spar box (the bushing on the nut side should be removable if not gluded in place), but those parts should be available from Lyle Hendricks. Youâ€™ll need to disconnect the aileron push tubes from the bell cranks to side the tubes out of the fuselage. This past spring I moved my TR-1C 1200 miles from Minnesota to Philadelphia, PA, I did not realize the push tubes were disconnected as the wing was off when I arrived to pick up the airplane. I checked the airplane at each fuel stop but on the last run over the PA mountains one push tube slid out and I almost lost it but it got wedged in place by one of the wing supports. I used the spar bolts as the main attach point along with the wheel axles and the tail wheel to hold it on the trailer. My advices is donâ€™t buy that cheap duct tape from Harbor Freight it sucks.



Robert Reeds website has a complete TR-1 builders manual if you do not have one. http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/



Good Luck,

Mark T.    Pic attached of my arrival at home



PS: There is also a new owner of Ed Foresters TR-1 that was in Florida

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BarryH

Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Very cool. Thanks for the info. Yes, i packed a sawzall with me just in case. We are moving it 2500 miles from Reno to Knoxville. Lond haul. But i look forward to getting it here and starting my refurbish of the plane. Definatly looks like there is some good advice to be had here on this forum.  Barry

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

10/30/2013



Hello Barry, You wrote:



1) "We are moving it 2500 miles from Reno to Knoxville."



Wow! I am really impressed with your ambition. Who built the plane and who 

did you buy it from? Engine and any other particulars?



2) "Definatly looks like there is some good advice to be had here on this 

forum."



Absolutely true and not just in the current postings, but in years of past 

postings buried (but accessible) in the archives. We can help you find some 

nuggets in there.



OC



===============================================================================



From: BarryH

Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 11:31 AM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1






Very cool. Thanks for the info. Yes, i packed a sawzall with me just in 

case. We are moving it 2500 miles from Reno to Knoxville. Lond haul. But i 

look forward to getting it here and starting my refurbish of the plane. 

Definatly looks like there is some good advice to be had here on this forum. 

Barry

jconners(at)dot.state.nv.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

Barry:



The fiberglass cover plates are 'glued' inplace and several of the screws that originally held the cover plates in place are stripped and the incorrect size...therefore removal of the cover plates will require some effort and a variety of tools to free the plates without damaging the attachment location.



Jer



N94K owner/pilot 2001-2012(?)



--

BarryH

Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Thanks for the info Jerry. Hopefully the main spar bolts are ok.



This plane was built by Kindig. N94K. #095. Has a 0-235 in it. Considering putting a 0-320 on it. Owned by Jerry Conners for quite some time there in Nevada. Needs some TLC, but looks to be a plane that can be really nice once it is refurbished.

jconners(at)dot.state.nv.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:43 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

Barry:



When you get the construction manuals and other documents that I gave to Darren, then you will have a more accurate record of who the builders and owners were...although R Kindig was the 51% designated builder, much of the original kit assembly was performed by someone earlier.



Jer



--

BarryH

Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Yes, I have all the documents. He bought the fuselage from a guy, and then bought the wings from the manufacturer. I saw where the fuselage was partially built when he purchased it from Brett Nicolette.

mark_trickel

Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 101
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Hey Barry,



Jerry is referring to the 6â€ X 6â€ access panels on the outboard underside of each wing located over the aileron bell crank. The left wing should also have the pilot static ports attached to it. These panels are cut into the wing skins by the builder and have 4 screws in the corners of each panel. There were supposed to be nut plates attached to the inner fiberglass layer of the laminated wing skin in each corner to secure the panel to the wing. Not all builders used nut plates, my build used plain sheet metal screws and they just do not hold up. I believe Jerry is saying the panel may be glued in place. You may want to pack two more tools â€“ a Dremel with those little gridding discs and possibly a few other cutting attachments, and if that donâ€™t work a jig saw to cut out the whole panel. Heck, its fiberglass and easy to patch up or fabricate a new one, but donâ€™t cut to close to the corners where the nut plates are supposed to be just in case they may actually be there. You wonâ€™t want to be wasting too much time getting the cover panels off youâ€™ll have you hands full getting the wing off and the plane loaded. It took me 4 hours to set up my trailer rigging and get the plane loaded and that was 2 hours more than I thought it would take.



There are other fairings on the bottom side of the fuselage you will need to remove. One covering the spar box opening. Two small removable  leading edge fairings on underside of the wing. Two larger fairings that contour the wing to the fuselage. These should all have nut plates used to attach them but may also have sheet metal screws in place. If they are nut plate and corrosion has set in getting those screws out can be difficult. If the heads become stripped out the Dremel and thin griding disc deal is great to cut larger slots in the head for easier removal.     



Richard Kindig did come to Oshkosh, maybe even more than once. I recall he was at one of the KIS get together dinners. It is hard for me to remember everything that happened but I do recall Richard K. telling us he liked building airplanes and was in the habit of buying derelict or unfinished projects and finishing them off, then enjoying them for a while, and then he'd sell them and move on to another project. Before he bought the KIS he previously finished off a Glasair. There are several post in the KIS archives by Richard K. He was unmarried and so he had plenty of time for airplane building. I am sure there were other airplane projects after his KIS. I think he did finally settle down and get married. He is now living in one of the Virginia States, though I am not sure which one.   



Mark T.

BarryH

Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:06 am Post subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Great information. Thank you

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:00 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

10/31/2013

  

 Hello All KIS Builders and Maintainers, Mark Trickel wrote: â€œIf they are nut plate and corrosion has set

in getting  those screws out can be difficult.â€

  

 Amen. And a great way to avoid that head  stripping problem in the future is to avoid using Phillips drive machine screws.  Hex socket (Allen drive) and 6 lobe (Torx drive) machine screws are vastly  superior and not just for avoiding the stripping out problem. 

  

 Every builder that has ever tried the non  Phillips drive screws has become a believer. (Bill Harrelson, the guy that flew  his Lancair IV non stop from Guam to Jax FL, recently thanked me profusely for  steering him right on machine screw drives and told me that he had built his  plane with almost no Phillips drive screws.) 

  

 You can obtain these hex socket and 6 lobe  drive screws, in stainless steel if you wish, and with aviation 100 degree  countersink on the flat heads, from  Microfasteners:

  

 http://www.microfasteners.com/

  

 When working with these screws the proper drive tools such as a kit from  Chapman is essential:

  

 http://www.chapmanmfg.com/

  

 OC

  

 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 ==============================================

  



Time: 06:44:08 PM PST US

Subject: Re: Wing  removal on a TR-1

From: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel(at)gmail.com (marktrickel(at)gmail.com)>

Hey Barry,



Jerry is referring to  the 6 X 6 access panels on the outboard underside of each

wing located over  the aileron bell crank. The left wing should also have the

pilot static ports  attached to it. These panels are cut into the wing skins by

the builder and  have 4 screws in the corners of each panel. There were supposed

to be nut  plates attached to the inner fiberglass layer of the laminated wing

skin in  each corner to secure the panel to the wing. Not all builders used

nut  plates, my build used plain sheet metal screws and they just do not hold  up.

I believe Jerry is saying the panel may be glued in place. You may want  to

pack two more tools  a Dremel with those little gridding discs and  possibly a

few other cutting attachments, and if that dont work a jig saw to  cut out the

whole panel. Heck, its fiberglass and easy to patch up or  fabricate a new one,

but dont cut to close to the corners where the nut  plates are supposed to be

just in case they may actually be there. You wont  want to be wasting too much

time getting the cover panels off youll have you  hands full getting the wing off

and the plane loaded. It took me 4 hours to  set up my trailer rigging and get

the plane loaded and that was 2 hours more  than I thought it would take.



There are other fairings on the bottom side  of the fuselage you will need to remove.

One covering the spar box opening.  Two small removable  leading edge fairings

on underside of the wing. Two  larger fairings that contour the wing to the

fuselage. These should all have  nut plates used to attach them but may also

have sheet metal screws in place.  If they are nut plate and corrosion has set

in getting those screws out can  be difficult. If the heads become stripped out

the Dremel and thin griding  disc deal is great to cut larger slots in the head

for easier  removal.     



Richard Kindig did come to Oshkosh,  maybe even more than once. I recall he was

at one of the KIS get together  dinners. It is hard for me to remember everything

that happened but I do  recall Richard K. telling us he liked building airplanes

and was in the habit  of buying derelict or unfinished projects and finishing

them off, then  enjoying them for a while, and then he'd sell them and move

on to another  project. Before he bought the KIS he previously finished off a

Glasair. There  are several post in the KIS archives by Richard K. He was unmarried

and so he  had plenty of time for airplane building. I am sure there were

other airplane  projects after his KIS. I think he did finally settle down and

get married.  He is now living in one of the Virginia States, though I am not sure

which  one.   



Mark T.



   [quote][b]

BarryH

Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Wing removal on a TR-1

Yes, I agree. I will definatly not use phillips heads when I attach it back on. I have already removed those panels and most all of the screws were stripped out.

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:52 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

I echo what OC posted. My TR4 is almost completely 6 lobe Torx and this makes a huge difference and the price difference is so small. It is a great investment.



On Thursday, October 31, 2013, Owen Baker  wrote:

[quote]     10/31/2013

  

 Hello All KIS Builders and Maintainers, Mark Trickel wrote: “If they are nut plate and corrosion has set

in getting  those screws out can be difficult.”

  

 Amen. And a great way to avoid that head  stripping problem in the future is to avoid using Phillips drive machine screws.  Hex socket (Allen drive) and 6 lobe (Torx drive) machine screws are vastly  superior and not just for avoiding the stripping out problem. 

  

 Every builder that has ever tried the non  Phillips drive screws has become a believer. (Bill Harrelson, the guy that flew  his Lancair IV non stop from Guam to Jax FL, recently thanked me profusely for  steering him right on machine screw drives and told me that he had built his  plane with almost no Phillips drive screws.) 

  

 You can obtain these hex socket and 6 lobe  drive screws, in stainless steel if you wish, and with aviation 100 degree  countersink on the flat heads, from  Microfasteners:

  

 http://www.microfasteners.com/

  

 When working with these screws the proper drive tools such as a kit from  Chapman is essential:

  

 http://www.chapmanmfg.com/

  

 OC

  

 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 =====================

  



Time: 06:44:08 PM PST US

Subject: KIS-List: Re: Wing  removal on a TR-1

From: "mark_trickel" <[url=javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'marktrickel(at)gmail.com');]marktrickel(at)gmail.com[/url]>

 



Hey Barry,



Jerry is referring to  the 6 X 6 access panels on the outboard underside of each

wing located over  the aileron bell crank. The left wing should also have the

pilot static ports  attached to it. These panels are cut into the wing skins by

the builder and  have 4 screws in the corners of each panel. There were supposed

to be nut  plates attached to the inner fiberglass layer of the laminated wing

skin in  each corner to secure the panel to the wing. Not all builders used

nut  plates, my build used plain sheet metal screws and they just do not hold  up.

I believe Jerry is saying the panel may be glued in place. You may want  to

pack two more tools  a Dremel with those little gridding discs and  possibly a

few other cutting attachments, and if that dont work a jig saw to  cut out the

whole panel. Heck, its fiberglass and easy to patch up or  fabricate a new one,

but dont cut to close to the corners where the nut  plates are supposed to be

just in case they may actually be there. You wont  want to be wasting too much

time getting the cover panels off youll have you  hands full getting the wing off

and the plane loaded. It took me 4 hours to  set up my trailer rigging and get

the plane loaded and that was 2 hours more  than I thought it would take.



There are other fairings on the bottom side  of the fuselage you will need to remove.

One covering the spar box opening.  Two small removable  leading edge fairings

on underside of the wing. Two  larger fairings that contour the wing to the

fuselage. These should all have  nut plates used to attach them but may also

have sheet metal screws in place.  If they are nut plate and corrosion has set

in getting those screws out can  be difficult. If the heads become stripped out

the Dremel and thin griding  disc deal is great to cut larger slots in the head

for easier  removal.     



Richard Kindig did come to Oshkosh,  maybe even more than once. I recall he was

at one of the KIS get together  dinners. It is hard for me to remember everything

that happened but I do  recall Richard K. telling us he liked building airplanes

and was in the habit  of buying derelict or unfinished projects and finishing

them off, then  enjoying them for a while, and then he'd sell them and move

on to another  project. Before he bought the KIS he previously finished off a

Glasair. There  are several post in the KIS archives by Richard K. He was unmarried

and so he  had plenty of time for airplane building. I am sure there were

other airplane  projects after his KIS. I think he did finally settle down and

get married.  He is now living in one of the Virginia States, though I am not sure

which  one.   



Mark T.



    	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:15 am Post subject: Wing removal on a TR-1

It is just beyond my comprehension that we, in the 21st century, still use flat or phillips head screws for anything.  

Scott





On Oct 31, 2013, at 5:59 AM, "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:



[quote]    10/31/2013

  

 Hello All KIS Builders and Maintainers, Mark Trickel wrote: â€œIf they are nut plate and corrosion has set

in getting  those screws out can be difficult.â€

  

 Amen. And a great way to avoid that head  stripping problem in the future is to avoid using Phillips drive machine screws.  Hex socket (Allen drive) and 6 lobe (Torx drive) machine screws are vastly  superior and not just for avoiding the stripping out problem. 

  

 Every builder that has ever tried the non  Phillips drive screws has become a believer. (Bill Harrelson, the guy that flew  his Lancair IV non stop from Guam to Jax FL, recently thanked me profusely for  steering him right on machine screw drives and told me that he had built his  plane with almost no Phillips drive screws.) 

  

 You can obtain these hex socket and 6 lobe  drive screws, in stainless steel if you wish, and with aviation 100 degree  countersink on the flat heads, from  Microfasteners:

  

 http://www.microfasteners.com/

  

 When working with these screws the proper drive tools such as a kit from  Chapman is essential:

  

 http://www.chapmanmfg.com/

  

 OC

  

 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 ==============================================

  



Time: 06:44:08 PM PST US

Subject: Re: Wing  removal on a TR-1

From: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel(at)gmail.com (marktrickel(at)gmail.com)>

Hey Barry,



Jerry is referring to  the 6 X 6 access panels on the outboard underside of each

wing located over  the aileron bell crank. The left wing should also have the

pilot static ports  attached to it. These panels are cut into the wing skins by

the builder and  have 4 screws in the corners of each panel. There were supposed

to be nut  plates attached to the inner fiberglass layer of the laminated wing

skin in  each corner to secure the panel to the wing. Not all builders used

nut  plates, my build used plain sheet metal screws and they just do not hold  up.

I believe Jerry is saying the panel may be glued in place. You may want  to

pack two more tools  a Dremel with those little gridding discs and  possibly a

few other cutting attachments, and if that dont work a jig saw to  cut out the

whole panel. Heck, its fiberglass and easy to patch up or  fabricate a new one,

but dont cut to close to the corners where the nut  plates are supposed to be

just in case they may actually be there. You wont  want to be wasting too much

time getting the cover panels off youll have you  hands full getting the wing off

and the plane loaded. It took me 4 hours to  set up my trailer rigging and get

the plane loaded and that was 2 hours more  than I thought it would take.



There are other fairings on the bottom side  of the fuselage you will need to remove.

One covering the spar box opening.  Two small removable  leading edge fairings

on underside of the wing. Two  larger fairings that contour the wing to the

fuselage. These should all have  nut plates used to attach them but may also

have sheet metal screws in place.  If they are nut plate and corrosion has set

in getting those screws out can  be difficult. If the heads become stripped out

the Dremel and thin griding  disc deal is great to cut larger slots in the head

for easier  removal.     



Richard Kindig did come to Oshkosh,  maybe even more than once. I recall he was

at one of the KIS get together  dinners. It is hard for me to remember everything

that happened but I do  recall Richard K. telling us he liked building airplanes

and was in the habit  of buying derelict or unfinished projects and finishing

them off, then  enjoying them for a while, and then he'd sell them and move

on to another  project. Before he bought the KIS he previously finished off a

Glasair. There  are several post in the KIS archives by Richard K. He was unmarried

and so he  had plenty of time for airplane building. I am sure there were

other airplane  projects after his KIS. I think he did finally settle down and

get married.  He is now living in one of the Virginia States, though I am not sure

which  one.   



Mark T.



    	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

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