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Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:33 pm Post subject: Essential Bus question

Bill,

I don't know what was available when you designed your system. Grand 

Rapids recommends http://www.tcwtech.com/IBBS.htm for backup battery, 

and TCW says it is also suitable for backup of G430.

Dynon offers its own backup battery managed by the EFIS software to 

takeover at 12.3 volts.

Garmin 650 and 750 know airways, unlike their older brethern.

I get the need for airways and not wanting to re-enter flight plan after 

start, or wait to after start to do it with the price of gas.

There is also a voice activated add on for the 430 for data entry that 

Knows airways.

What I "get" is the desire to keep electrical system as simple as 

possible as the primary means to reduce failure points. If reboot 

becomes a problem with my GTN 650, I will add a TCW unit. I'm just not a 

fan of dual bus, dual alternator, dual battery systems, but we are OBAM 

so we can make our own choices and argue with anyone who chooses 

differently. 

Kelly

On 2/7/2014 3:30 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>

 Sorry about adding to this rather old discussion but I've been away 

 for awhile.

 I finished my RV10 in 2011 which means that I designed my electrical 

 system and panel around 2008 for a 2009-2010 build.

 I have 3 GRT HX EFISs - 2 aimed at the pilot, 1 at the passenger. They 

 supply synthetic vision, moving map, weather, traffic and a complete 

 suite of engine stats.   No light weight backup batteries can be 

 configured  at the factory with these systems.   These screens have no 

 integral on/off switch. I chose not to add any switches or operable 

 CBs.  They come on with the master and will usually reboot when my 

 IO540 cold starts with a single, fresh PC 680 battery.

 The GPS WAAS smarts for this system are supplied by a G430W.

 I am a serious traveler with this machine and practically all flight 

 are on IFR plans.  My normal routine for all flights is to file my 

 plan using Foreflight on an iPad.  Whenever at an airport with 

 clearance delivery, or when departing into IMC conditions, I obtain my 

 clearance on the ground, before engine start, and enter it into my 

 iPad and then into my G430.  Many times in congested areas, this entry 

 is followed by no small amount of study.  As my aging mind continues 

 to fog over, I'm finding that the study time grows.

 Here's the challenge on G430 based panels; it loses any entered flight 

 plan when powered off.  An engine start that reboots my GRTs, reboots 

 my G430.

 An acute challenge on 430 based panels when used for flights around 

 the Wash DC area or for flights along Florida's Atlantic coast is that 

 the G430 does not know what a Victor airway is. These are flights I 

 make regularly and clearances in these areas typically still include 

 Victor airways.  So in the routine described above, entry into the 

 iPad generates the necessary waypoints to any Victor airways.  

 Accurate entry of these waypoints into the G430 is important and 

 there's no way I want to redo the work.

 As Bob would put it, this is the 'kitchen sink' I choose to fly with.  

 I think it's fantastic and works very very well for me. It's now a 

 well grooved swing.  The inability of some (e.g. Bob, not necessarily 

 you Kelly but I did choose to respond to your post) to 'get' this 

 requirement for this pilot, seems to me is just an inability to see 

 past old school experience or perhaps your current pleasure flying 

 routines.

 I have a Z-14 with 2 batts, 2 alts, and 2 buses and I REALLY like it.  

 I bring up the 'kitchen sink' on one battery, get my clearances, enter 

 them into my systems, study my departure plan when doing complicated 

 airspace or low IMC departures and then bring up the 2nd battery bus, 

 cross link them and start my engine.  Everything stays up.  Before 

 takeoff I've learned, per Bob, to de-link the buses and off I go.

 Per Bob, I've eliminated any semblance of an avionics bus, extra 

 switches or CBs.  After a few operational adjustments and refinements 

 (Thanks Bob!), the 'overkill' of a Z-14 has given me exactly what I 

 think I need.

 I need my avionics on before start and I have a big kitchen sink that 

 takes care of the dishes just like I want them done.  So can we please 

 stop dismissing this approach to equipping and traveling in our very 

 fine OBAM aircraft  within the user fee free ATC system we have?  Some 

 of us do it every day because that's the way we choose to roll.

 PS: I've been out of the loop island hopping the Bahamas. Recommend it 

 highly.  What an adjustment flying VFR from place to place!  However, 

 I still used the same procedures because that's what standard 

 procedures are for.

 Bill "It's pretty darn good in the Bahamas" Watson

 N215TG

 On 2/2/2014 7:14 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

> 

> <kellym(at)aviating.com>

>

> Virtually all glass have their own light weight backup batteries so 

> do not have startup brown out issues unless no backup battery is 

> installed.

> I see very little value in being able to turn on GPS prior to start.

> While one needs engine instrumentation prior to and during start, one 

> does not need avionics on.

> Of course newer avionics that allow faster input of flight plans than 

> the 430 help, if that is the reason for turning on 430 before start.

>

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: Essential Bus question

From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, February 7, 2014 6:32 PM

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

Bill,

I don't know what was available when you designed your system. Grand Rapids recommends http://www.tcwtech.com/IBBS.htm for backup battery, and TCW says it is also suitable for backup of G430.

Dynon offers its own backup battery managed by the EFIS software to takeover at 12.3 volts.

Garmin 650 and 750 know airways, unlike their older brethern.

I get the need for airways and not wanting to re-enter flight plan after start, or wait to after start to do it with the price of gas.

There is also a voice activated add on for the 430 for data entry that Knows airways.

What I "get" is the desire to keep electrical system as simple as possible as the primary means to reduce failure points. If reboot becomes a problem with my GTN 650, I will add a TCW unit. 

I'm  just not a fan of dual bus, dual alternator, dual battery systems, but we are OBAM so we can make our own choices and argue with anyone who chooses differently. 

Exactly - That's why I drew the system that I posted about a week ago (see attached PDF).  Single bus, single alternator, simpler...

On 2/7/2014 3:30 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

 Sorry about adding to this rather old discussion but I've been away for awhile.

 I finished my RV10 in 2011 which means that I designed my electrical system and panel around 2008 for a 2009-2010 build.

 I have 3 GRT HX EFISs - 2 aimed at the pilot, 1 at the passenger. They supply synthetic vision, moving map,  weather, traffic and a complete suite of engine stats.   No light weight backup batteries can be configured  at the factory with these systems.   These screens have no integral on/off switch. I chose not to add any switches or operable CBs.  They come on with the master and will usually reboot when my IO540 cold starts with a single, fresh PC 680 battery.

 The GPS WAAS smarts for this system are supplied by a G430W.

 I am a serious traveler with this machine and practically all flight are on IFR plans.  My normal routine for all flights is to file my plan using Foreflight on an iPad.  Whenever at an airport with clearance delivery, or when departing into IMC conditions, I obtain my clearance on the ground, before engine start, and enter it into my iPad and then into my G430.  Many times in congested areas, this entry is followed by no small amount of study.  As my aging mind  continues to fog over, I'm finding that the study time grows.

 Here's the challenge on G430 based panels; it loses any entered flight plan when powered off.  An engine start that reboots my GRTs, reboots my G430.

 An acute challenge on 430 based panels when used for flights around the Wash DC area or for flights along Florida's Atlantic coast is that the G430 does not know what a Victor airway is. These are flights I make regularly and clearances in these areas typically still include Victor airways.  So in the routine described above, entry into the iPad generates the necessary waypoints to any Victor airways.  Accurate entry of these waypoints into the G430 is important and there's no way I want to redo the work.

 As Bob would put it, this is the 'kitchen sink' I choose to fly with.  I think it's fantastic and works very very well for me. It's now a well grooved swing.  The  inability of some (e.g. Bob, not necessarily you Kelly but I did choose to respond to your post) to 'get' this requirement for this pilot, seems to me is just an inability to see past old school experience or perhaps your current pleasure flying routines.

 I have a Z-14 with 2 batts, 2 alts, and 2 buses and I REALLY like it.  I bring up the 'kitchen sink' on one battery, get my clearances, enter them into my systems, study my departure plan when doing complicated airspace or low IMC departures and then bring up the 2nd battery bus, cross link them and start my engine.  Everything stays up.  Before takeoff I've learned, per Bob, to de-link the buses and off I go.

 Per Bob, I've eliminated any semblance of an avionics bus, extra switches or CBs.  After a few operational adjustments and refinements (Thanks Bob!), the 'overkill' of a Z-14 has given me exactly what I think I need.

 I need my  avionics on before start and I have a big kitchen sink that takes care of the dishes just like I want them done.  So can we please stop dismissing this approach to equipping and traveling in our very fine OBAM aircraft  within the user fee free ATC system we have?  Some of us do it every day because that's the way we choose to roll.

 PS: I've been out of the loop island hopping the Bahamas. Recommend it highly.  What an adjustment flying VFR from place to place!  However, I still used the same procedures because that's what standard procedures are for.

 Bill "It's pretty darn good in the Bahamas" Watson

 N215TG

 On 2/2/2014 7:14 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

> 

> Virtually all glass have their  own light weight backup batteries so do not have startup brown out issues unless no backup battery is installed.

> I see very little value in being able to turn on GPS prior to start.

> While one needs engine instrumentation prior to and during start, one does not need avionics on.

> Of course newer avionics that allow faster input of flight plans than the 430 help, if that is the reason for turning on 430 before start.

> 

_-========================; http://forums.matronics.com</                     -Mats.com/contribution" =======

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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:14 am Post subject: Essential Bus question

I don't know if the TCW product was       available when I was panel building in the 2008-2010 timeframe but       I never saw or heard any recommendation from GRT about the TCW       backup battery.  They certainly were having "brown out issues"       with the HXs because we found that they don't like to have their       boot processes interrupted by loss of power incidents, which in my       case became every single start in low temps.  They should have       bought TCW's unit and made it a recommended option but I think       they were busy working on the newer EFISs.  In fact, I recently       added TCW's IPS (Power stabilizer) to my (3) units and the G430       and that did the trick without adding any additional batteries to       maintain.

       

       Kelly, I apologize for jumping on your post and accept your       statement that you are not a fan of dual bus, dual alternator,       dual battery systems (though you don't exactly explain why).  The       simplicity and symmetry of the Z-14 is what attracted me in the       first place.  I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the       essential bus and how I would apply it to my 'kitchen sink' panel       without having to add switches so I could perform triage on my       triad of GRT EFISs.  Or adding a little Dynon or something as a       backup.  Just what I needed was another brand of EFIS to learn to       operate.  To me, those approaches add operational complexity and       additional  failure points but I could be wrong.

       

       But what got me is that you didn't express a distaste for the       Z-14, which I accept.  Instead your post inadvertently dismissed       the very way I operate my aircraft by saying:

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  Virtually all glass have their own light weight backup         batteries so do not have startup brown out issues unless no         backup battery is installed.         (not GRT HXs)

         

         I see very little value in being able to turn on GPS prior to         start.         (I need the G430 prior to start, perhaps independent of the         GPS.  I need at least one EFIS to see my engine instruments.          Having the Navworx ADSB up for weather is nice too so I can time         my departure around those Gulf Coast thunder bumpers, but the         G430 is the problem)

         

         While one needs engine instrumentation prior to and during         start, one does not need avionics on.          (I do unless I want to switch out 1 or all of my 3 EFISs - talk         about a additional points of failure on a critical instrument)

         

         Of course newer avionics that allow faster input of flight plans         than the 430 help, if that is the reason for turning on 430         before start.         (It is but perhaps I should upgrade or at least get Siri (!!??)         for my G430)

       	
       I guess you can see my feathers remain ruffled.  Sorry for       continuing the 'argument' but as you said we make our own choices       and can argue with anyone who does differently.

       

       Honestly Mr Nuckolls is the guy who puts my nose out of joint with       the "kitchen  sink" stuff.  Just as Bob and this list has enabled       me to design and build my dream traveling machine, I feel the need       to defend all that has been enabled.  Bob, I love you man!  I       value your advice, counsel and guidance above all others.  This       list and the people on it, especially folks like Kelly, are to die       for.  Just please stop calling my panel a "kitchen sink".    I       promise I'll upgrade it, pare it down and streamline it with some       excess $$$$ the next time I see the opportunity to do it.   

       

       But I'll probably keep the Z-14 so when someone runs across the       ramp to tell me I left my master on, I can shrug my shoulders and       say "no problem, I've got a Z-14 and enough juice to run it for       another 20 minutes and still start it up and get out of here".        Not a requirement but I enjoy it nonetheless.

       

       Thanks for letting me vent... feel free to return the favor.  And       thanks for taking the time to respond.

       

       Bill "I REALLY like my panel" Watson

       

       On 2/7/2014 9:32 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

     

     [quote]-->       AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen       <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)       

       

       Bill,       

       I don't know what was available when you designed your system.       Grand Rapids recommends http://www.tcwtech.com/IBBS.htm for backup       battery, and TCW says it is also suitable for backup of G430.       

       Dynon offers its own backup battery managed by the EFIS software       to takeover at 12.3 volts.       

       Garmin 650 and 750 know airways, unlike their older brethern.       

       I get the need for airways and not wanting to re-enter flight plan       after start, or wait to after start to do it with the price of       gas.       

       There is also a voice activated add on for the 430 for data entry       that Knows airways.       

       What I "get" is the desire to keep electrical system as simple as       possible as the primary means to reduce failure points. If reboot       becomes a problem with my GTN 650, I will add a TCW unit. I'm just       not a fan of dual bus, dual alternator, dual battery systems, but       we are OBAM so we can make our own choices and argue with anyone       who chooses differently.        

       Kelly       

       On 2/7/2014 3:30 PM, Bill Watson wrote:       

        	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted         by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)         

         

         Sorry about adding to this rather old discussion but I've been         away for awhile.         

         

         I finished my RV10 in 2011 which means that I designed my         electrical system and panel around 2008 for a 2009-2010 build.         

         

         I have 3 GRT HX EFISs - 2 aimed at the pilot, 1 at the         passenger. They supply synthetic vision, moving map, weather,         traffic and a complete suite of engine stats.   No light weight         backup batteries can be configured  at the factory with these         systems.   These screens have no integral on/off switch. I chose         not to add any switches or operable CBs.  They come on with the         master and will usually reboot when my IO540 cold starts with a         single, fresh PC 680 battery.         

         

         The GPS WAAS smarts for this system are supplied by a G430W.         

         

         I am a serious traveler with this machine and practically all         flight are on IFR plans.  My normal routine for all flights is         to file my plan using Foreflight on an iPad.  Whenever at an         airport with clearance delivery, or when departing into IMC         conditions, I obtain my clearance on the ground, before engine         start, and enter it into my iPad and then into my G430.  Many         times in congested areas, this entry is followed by no small         amount of study.  As my aging mind continues to fog over, I'm         finding that the study time grows.         

         

         Here's the challenge on G430 based panels; it loses any entered         flight plan when powered off.  An engine start that reboots my         GRTs, reboots my G430.         

         

         An acute challenge on 430 based panels when used for flights         around the Wash DC area or for flights along Florida's Atlantic         coast is that the G430 does not know what a Victor airway is.         These are flights I make regularly and clearances in these areas         typically still include Victor airways.  So in the routine         described above, entry into the iPad generates the necessary         waypoints to any Victor airways.  Accurate entry of these         waypoints into the G430 is important and there's no way I want         to redo the work.         

         

         As Bob would put it, this is the 'kitchen sink' I choose to fly         with.  I think it's fantastic and works very very well for me.         It's now a well grooved swing.  The inability of some (e.g. Bob,         not necessarily you Kelly but I did choose to respond to your         post) to 'get' this requirement for this pilot, seems to me is         just an inability to see past old school experience or perhaps         your current pleasure flying routines.         

         

         I have a Z-14 with 2 batts, 2 alts, and 2 buses and I REALLY         like it.  I bring up the 'kitchen sink' on one battery, get my         clearances, enter them into my systems, study my departure plan         when doing complicated airspace or low IMC departures and then         bring up the 2nd battery bus, cross link them and start my         engine.  Everything stays up.  Before takeoff I've learned, per         Bob, to de-link the buses and off I go.         

         

         Per Bob, I've eliminated any semblance of an avionics bus, extra         switches or CBs.  After a few operational adjustments and         refinements (Thanks Bob!), the 'overkill' of a Z-14 has given me         exactly what I think I need.         

         

         I need my avionics on before start and I have a big kitchen sink         that takes care of the dishes just like I want them done.  So         can we please stop dismissing this approach to equipping and         traveling in our very fine OBAM aircraft  within the user fee         free ATC system we have?  Some of us do it every day because         that's the way we choose to roll.         

         

         PS: I've been out of the loop island hopping the Bahamas.         Recommend it highly.  What an adjustment flying VFR from place         to place!  However, I still used the same procedures because         that's what standard procedures are for.         

         

         Bill "It's pretty darn good in the Bahamas" Watson         

         N215TG         

         On 2/2/2014 7:14 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:         

          	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted           by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)           

           

           Virtually all glass have their own light weight backup           batteries so do not have startup brown out issues unless no           backup battery is installed.           

           I see very little value in being able to turn on GPS prior to           start.           

           While one needs engine instrumentation prior to and during           start, one does not need avionics on.           

           Of course newer avionics that allow faster input of flight           plans than the 430 help, if that is the reason for turning on           430 before start.           

           

         	
         

         

         

         

         

       	
       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       -----       

       No virus found in this message.       

       Checked by AVG - www.avg.com       

       02/07/14       

       

       

     [b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:06 am Post subject: Essential Bus question

Honestly Mr Nuckolls is the guy who puts my nose out of joint with 

the "kitchen  sink" stuff.  Just as Bob and this list has enabled me 

to design and build my dream traveling machine, I feel the need to 

defend all that has been enabled.  Bob, I love you man!  I value your 

advice, counsel and guidance above all others.  This list and the 

people on it, especially folks like Kelly, are to die for.  Just 

please stop calling my panel a "kitchen sink".



   Did I use that term . . . can you cite the posting?



I promise I'll upgrade it, pare it down and streamline it with some 

excess $$$$ the next time I see the opportunity to do it.



   I'm sorry if you've found my contributions trying  . . .

   but my friend . . . it's my job.



   I'll tell you a story . . .



   About 30 years ago I was enjoying attendance at one

   of Wichita's signature community events every fall;

   the annual chili cook-off. These were (and I think

   still are) vigorously contested events. The winners

   are chosen by counting the chill beans in a jar

   on the table at their cook-site in the park.



   Everyone who buys a ticket for the event is given

   a little bowl, an official tasting spoon and access

   to all the crackers they want. They also receive 10

   beans to be dropped in what ever combination they

   choose into the contestant's jars as a means of

   voting by the tasting public.



   The caveat was that the top three winners had to

   post their recipes. I think the idea was that whoever

   won the coveted slots next year were thus encouraged

   not to have an identical or even largely similar

   recipe.



   I recall one winner's posting having probably the

   most complex recipe for ingredients I had ever seen

   . . . particularly in the range and ratio of spices.

   I asked the chef how he arrived at the necessity/

   value for the ingredients. I don't recall his answer

   except that it wasn't very satisfying. I then

   hypothesized about his perceived ability to sample

   his work from two pots except that one ingredient

   would be eliminated from one of the pots. Did he

   think he could separate the altered batch from

   the golden batch. He allowed as how he could.



   I wish I had copied down the recipe. Needless to say

   his assertion was the source of no small degree

   of skepticism. I think it was Thomas Paine who

   extolled the virtues of simplicity as being less

   likely to become disordered and more easily set

   right if it should become disordered.



   I view my best contribution to the List in the

   role not unlike that of my most cherished bosses

   over the years who were also fond of Mr. Paine's

   sentiments.



   The simplest, lightest, least expensive solution

   to meeting design goals was the watchword. I can't

   tell you how many design reviews presented my

   work in front of a half dozen or more of my peers

   who were well armed with questions that produced

   some combination of three answers (1) the feature

   doesn't work, (2) the feature is unnecessary or (3)

   there's too many parts that drive up cost of

   ownership and dilutes value. All of the critics

   were armed with the customer's specification

   document.



   Those were never an activity to be feared or

   distrusted. What ever came out of the meeting was

   either 'golden' or blessed with suggestions

   for useful change.



   So yes, I may well give you a 'bad time' asking

   for justification and foundation for use of a

   particular part or architecture . . . with the

   same spirit and intent which I enjoyed over the

   years . . . a spirit and intent that persists to

   this day.



   Woke up this morning at 5:30 with an epiphany

   on a design problem I've been stirring in my head

   for a couple of weeks. I'm pretty sure my colleagues

   will approve . . . kicked a bunch of parts off the

   bill of materials (and a few hundred lines of code

   off the DO178 barge). I'll go see if they can poke

   any holes in it next week.



   If getting you little bent is a risk, I'll accept

   that. In the final analysis, what ever you decide

   to do poses little risk. You could produce an

   architecture that's simply pleasing to look at and

   fun to talk about. Used to see lots of those systems

   at OSH every year. Jim Bede's electrical honcho on

   the BD10J tried to enlist my services on such a

   project. Everything that happens to your design

   based on input from myself or others probably

   moves toward minimizing disorder and maximizing

   utility. That's a good thing.



   Bob . . .

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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: Essential Bus question

On 2/8/2014 12:05 PM, Robert L.       Nuckolls, III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.       Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)       

       

       Honestly Mr Nuckolls is the guy who puts my nose out of joint with       the "kitchen  sink" stuff.  Just as Bob and this list has enabled       me to design and build my dream traveling machine, I feel the need       to defend all that has been enabled.  Bob, I love you man!  I       value your advice, counsel and guidance above all others.  This       list and the people on it, especially folks like Kelly, are to die       for.  Just please stop calling my panel a "kitchen sink".       

       

         Did I use that term . . . can you cite the posting?       

     	
     Well here is the one I remember:

             	  Quote: 	
		  [b]Match:#6Message:#58841Date:Jul 08, 2013From:"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>Subject:Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators 	
     [/b](snip)

             	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  >

 	  Quote: 	
		  However, I normally start with the buses separated because if I go 

parallel, the voltage drop causes my 3 MDFs to re-boot.


	


   How much 'stuff' do you have to turn on before engine

   start? On the Beech products we used to offer a mini-ebus

   switch that would let you fire up a comm radio directly

   from the battery. Your comm radio probably needs 0.2A receive,

   and maybe 1.5A transmit. A long winded pre-flight activity

   might need 1000 watt-seconds.



   I'm thinking that the bus from which all your 'kitchen

   sink' accessories is powered also powers the comm radio

   and you have no way to power up the comm radio independently?

   You might want to consider moving a comm radio to a

   battery bus and adding . . .

	
	
     I hesitate to point out that you use the term generally to     describe electro-whiz intensive panels but no matter.

      	  Quote: 	
		         

       I promise I'll upgrade it, pare it down and streamline it with       some excess $$$$ the next time I see the opportunity to do it.       

       

         I'm sorry if you've found my contributions trying  . . .       

         but my friend . . . it's my job.       

     	
     And I'm on this list because you do it so well.  No harm, no foul Mr     Nuckolls!

     

      [quote][b]

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Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: Essential Bus question

I don't know about a GNS-430, but the GTN-650 I have uses around 2.8 

amps for the nav side and maybe .8 for the com side when in receive mode.

My Dynon Skyview screens use about 3 amps each. My SL-30 is under 2 amps 

in receive mode for com and nav together. So the governing draw will be 

how much current the EFIS needs and how much the certified GPS needs.

It seems odd that a certified GPS doesn't let you program and save a 

flight plan in non-volatile

  memory as most portable GPS units allow. If it doesn't, then an 

isolated backup battery powering just the essential items would seem to 

be required.

My antique Northstar M3 GPS allows storing flight plans as long as the 

soldered in keep alive battery is good. (no longer is).



On 2/8/2014 4:23 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 2/8/2014 12:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

> 

> <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

>

> Honestly Mr Nuckolls is the guy who puts my nose out of joint with 

> the "kitchen  sink" stuff.  Just as Bob and this list has enabled me 

> to design and build my dream traveling machine, I feel the need to 

> defend all that has been enabled.  Bob, I love you man!  I value your 

> advice, counsel and guidance above all others.  This list and the 

> people on it, especially folks like Kelly, are to die for.  Just 

> please stop calling my panel a "kitchen sink".

>

>   Did I use that term . . . can you cite the posting?

 Well here is the one I remember:

 *

 *Match:*	*/#6/*

 *Message:*	*/#58841/*



 *Date:*	*/Jul 08, 2013/*



 *From:*	*/"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>/*



 *Subject:*	/*Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators 

 <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=115279638?KEYS=kitchen_sink?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=6?SERIAL=15121118825?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>*/



 *(snip)

 *



     > >However, I normally start with the buses separated because if I

     go >parallel, the voltage drop causes my 3 MDFs to re-boot. How

     much 'stuff' do you have to turn on before engine start? On the

     Beech products we used to offer a mini-ebus switch that would let

     you fire up a comm radio directly from the battery. Your comm

     radio probably needs 0.2A receive, and maybe 1.5A transmit. A long

     winded pre-flight activity might need 1000 watt-seconds. I'm

     thinking that the bus from which all your 'kitchen sink'

     accessories is powered also powers the comm radio and you have no

     way to power up the comm radio independently? You might want to

     consider moving a comm radio to a battery bus and adding . . . 

 *I hesitate to point out that you use the term generally to describe 

 electro-whiz intensive panels but no matter.

>

> I promise I'll upgrade it, pare it down and streamline it with some 

> excess $$$$ the next time I see the opportunity to do it.

>

>   I'm sorry if you've found my contributions trying  . . .

>   but my friend . . . it's my job.

 And I'm on this list because you do it so well.  No harm, no foul Mr 

 Nuckolls!



 *

 *

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:00 pm Post subject: Essential Bus question

The 430w will allow storing a limited number of flight plans, IIRC 10, but if not using it again I hesitate to replace one of the ones I do use frequently with one I won't use again.  

Tim



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Feb 8, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I don't know about a GNS-430, but the GTN-650 I have uses around 2.8 amps for the nav side and maybe .8 for the com side when in receive mode.

 My Dynon Skyview screens use about 3 amps each. My SL-30 is under 2 amps in receive mode for com and nav together. So the governing draw will be how much current the EFIS needs and how much the certified GPS needs.

 It seems odd that a certified GPS doesn't let you program and save a flight plan in non-volatile

 memory as most portable GPS units allow. If it doesn't, then an isolated backup battery powering just the essential items would seem to be required.

 My antique Northstar M3 GPS allows storing flight plans as long as the soldered in keep alive battery is good. (no longer is).

 

> On 2/8/2014 4:23 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

>> On 2/8/2014 12:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> Honestly Mr Nuckolls is the guy who puts my nose out of joint with the "kitchen  sink" stuff.  Just as Bob and this list has enabled me to design and build my dream traveling machine, I feel the need to defend all that has been enabled.  Bob, I love you man!  I value your advice, counsel and guidance above all others.  This list and the people on it, especially folks like Kelly, are to die for.  Just please stop calling my panel a "kitchen sink".

>> 

>>  Did I use that term . . . can you cite the posting?

> Well here is the one I remember:

> *

> *Match:*    */#6/*

> *Message:*    */#58841/*

> 

> *Date:*    */Jul 08, 2013/*

> 

> *From:*    */"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>/*

> 

> *Subject:*    /*Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=115279638?KEYS=kitchen_sink?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=6?SERIAL=15121118825?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>*/

> 

> *(snip)

> *

> 

>    > >However, I normally start with the buses separated because if I

>    go >parallel, the voltage drop causes my 3 MDFs to re-boot. How

>    much 'stuff' do you have to turn on before engine start? On the

>    Beech products we used to offer a mini-ebus switch that would let

>    you fire up a comm radio directly from the battery. Your comm

>    radio probably needs 0.2A receive, and maybe 1.5A transmit. A long

>    winded pre-flight activity might need 1000 watt-seconds. I'm

>    thinking that the bus from which all your 'kitchen sink'

>    accessories is powered also powers the comm radio and you have no

>    way to power up the comm radio independently? You might want to

>    consider moving a comm radio to a battery bus and adding . . . *I hesitate to point out that you use the term generally to describe electro-whiz intensive panels but no matter.

>> 

>> I promise I'll upgrade it, pare it down and streamline it with some excess $$$$ the next time I see the opportunity to do it.

>> 

>>  I'm sorry if you've found my contributions trying  . . .

>>  but my friend . . . it's my job.

> And I'm on this list because you do it so well.  No harm, no foul Mr Nuckolls!

> 

> *

> 

> 

> *

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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:49 am Post subject: Essential Bus question

 	  Quote: 	
		   The 430w will allow storing a limited number of flight plans, IIRC 10, 

 but if not using it again I hesitate to replace one of the ones I do 

 use frequently with one I won't use again. 


	


.. And it's kind of awkward to store, retrieve and managed stored plans on them.  I tried doing that to get around the problems I was having but I kept screwing the button pushing up.  Now I don't use the feature at all.



I'm thinking that the GNS-430 is getting a bit long in the tooth and 

clearly doesn't have some features that one would want though I'm happy 

that it doesn't have an internal battery.  I had an old Becker comm 

radio with an internal battery for saved frequency storage and all it 

means is that periodic shop service is required.  G430s will be laying 

around some panels for a very long time....



To the G430s credit, it doesn't consume a lot of power and is tolerant 

of low voltage during starts and such.  It takes a lot to get it to 

re-boot.  I used 2.1 amps for planning purposes with 6.0 amps when 

transmitting.



But my 3 EFIS screens were power hogs.  I assumed 4.5 amps in aggregate 

plus 1 amp for the dual AHRS.   I chose to have them come on with the 

master and not have a separate switch or switches.



Bill "thanks to Bob and the list the panel works as desired now" Watson

 	  Quote: 	
		  > On Feb 8, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> I don't know about a GNS-430, but the GTN-650 I have uses around 2.8 amps for the nav side and maybe .8 for the com side when in receive mode.

> My Dynon Skyview screens use about 3 amps each. My SL-30 is under 2 amps in receive mode for com and nav together. So the governing draw will be how much current the EFIS needs and how much the certified GPS needs.

> It seems odd that a certified GPS doesn't let you program and save a flight plan in non-volatile

> memory as most portable GPS units allow. If it doesn't, then an isolated backup battery powering just the essential items would seem to be required.

> My antique Northstar M3 GPS allows storing flight plans as long as the soldered in keep alive battery is good. (no longer is).

>

>> On 2/8/2014 4:23 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

>>> On 2/8/2014 12:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>>> 

>>>

>>> Honestly Mr Nuckolls is the guy who puts my nose out of joint with the "kitchen  sink" stuff.  Just as Bob and this list has enabled me to design and build my dream traveling machine, I feel the need to defend all that has been enabled.  Bob, I love you man!  I value your advice, counsel and guidance above all others.  This list and the people on it, especially folks like Kelly, are to die for.  Just please stop calling my panel a "kitchen sink".

>>>

>>>   Did I use that term . . . can you cite the posting?

>> Well here is the one I remember:

>> *

>> *Match:*    */#6/*

>> *Message:*    */#58841/*

>>

>> *Date:*    */Jul 08, 2013/*

>>

>> *From:*    */"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>/*

>>

>> *Subject:*    /*Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=115279638?KEYS=kitchen_sink?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=6?SERIAL=15121118825?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>*/

>>

>> *(snip)

>> *

>>

>>     > >However, I normally start with the buses separated because if I

>>     go >parallel, the voltage drop causes my 3 MDFs to re-boot. How

>>     much 'stuff' do you have to turn on before engine start? On the

>>     Beech products we used to offer a mini-ebus switch that would let

>>     you fire up a comm radio directly from the battery. Your comm

>>     radio probably needs 0.2A receive, and maybe 1.5A transmit. A long

>>     winded pre-flight activity might need 1000 watt-seconds. I'm

>>     thinking that the bus from which all your 'kitchen sink'

>>     accessories is powered also powers the comm radio and you have no

>>     way to power up the comm radio independently? You might want to

>>     consider moving a comm radio to a battery bus and adding . . . *I hesitate to point out that you use the term generally to describe electro-whiz intensive panels but no matter.

>>> I promise I'll upgrade it, pare it down and streamline it with some excess $$$$ the next time I see the opportunity to do it.

>>>

>>>   I'm sorry if you've found my contributions trying  . . .

>>>   but my friend . . . it's my job.

>> And I'm on this list because you do it so well.  No harm, no foul Mr Nuckolls!

>>

>> *

>>

>>

>> *

>

>

 -----

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