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Power Generation without Battery

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ChrisM

Joined: 15 Nov 2014
Posts: 9

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject: Power Generation without Battery

I keep coming back to the legacy standard of being able to shut off everything except the ignition switch, and have the engine be able to exhaust its fuel. I still remember my surprise during training when my instructor flipped off the rocker switch! That robustness of design is pretty exciting.



Is one lead acid battery considered so reliable that it can reasonably stand as a single point of engine failure in a modern electrically dependent OBAM system? I honestly don't know.

I am seeking advice regarding what seems to me the optimal arrangement - 2 alternators and one lightweight battery - which will run the engine until fuel is exhausted in the face of any 1 out of 3 power source failures. Maybe I am shooting too high or focusing on the wrong areas.



I am not even close to an engineer but am willing to learn and really appreciate every ones thoughts. I have spoken with B&C and Plane Power and they have told me their alternators will not work without a battery.



Regarding the P Mag - It seems to be a solid product. Attractive in  that it's a bridge between old magneto technology and newer fully  integrated ones. 



My current hope is to be able to use the EFII system, which has been mentioned a number of times on the forum. Here is a link to the companies website: http://www.flyefii.com/



It  allows integration of both the fuel and ignition systems and also  precise programming of ignition curves and air fuel ratios based on real  time monitoring of several parameters. It is a single knob (ie  no mixture) system promoted as based on and similar in function to a  modern automobile system. This is beyond the P Mags capabilities, as I  understand them.

Chris M



  [quote][b]

_________________
ChrisM

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:18 pm Post subject: Power Generation without Battery

I think you have to be careful what,

     "... it will not work without a battery ..." means,

     As I understand it, if the battery has failed and you somehow start     the motor (hand prop, etc), then the alternator won't produce any     energy as it requires a battery to 'energise' it. However, how much     energy, and what is left in a 'dead' battery is a good question I     cannot answer quantitatively. A little and usually some are the     likely answers, but that's quite hand waving.

     If the battery quits while the engine is running and the     alternator(s) are producing current, then I can't see why they would     stop producing. Its not something you would want to experiment with     very often - the battery will soak up any variation in the     alternator output - but in a failure case the aircraft should run     until the fuel is exhausted.

     

     Which question did you ask?

     

     Peter

     

     On 20/01/2015 22:52, Chris Mullins       wrote:

     

     [quote]                                                                        I keep coming back to the legacy standard of being                   able to shut off everything except the ignition                   switch, and have the engine be able to exhaust its                   fuel. I still remember my surprise during training                   when my instructor flipped off the rocker switch! That                   robustness of design is pretty exciting.

                   

                   Is one lead acid battery considered so reliable that                   it can reasonably stand as a single point of engine                   failure in a modern electrically dependent OBAM                   system? I honestly don't know.

                 

               

             

           

           

           

           I am seeking advice regarding what seems to me the optimal           arrangement - 2 alternators and one lightweight battery -           which will run the engine until fuel is exhausted in the face           of any 1 out of 3 power source failures. Maybe I am shooting           too high or focusing on the wrong areas.

           

           I am not even close to an engineer but am willing to learn and           really appreciate every ones thoughts. I have spoken with           B&C and Plane Power and they have told me their           alternators will not work without a battery.

           

           Regarding the P Mag - It seems to be a solid product.             Attractive in that it's a bridge between old magneto             technology and newer fully integrated ones. 

             

             My current hope is to be able to use the EFII             system, which has been mentioned a number of times on the             forum. Here is a link to the companies website: http://www.flyefii.com/

           

           It allows integration of both the fuel and ignition systems           and also precise programming of ignition curves and air fuel           ratios based on real time monitoring of several parameters. It           is a single knob (ie no mixture) system promoted           as based on and similar in function to a modern automobile           system. This is beyond the P Mags capabilities, as I           understand them.

           

         

         Chris M

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

n801bh(at)netzero.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:23 pm Post subject: Power Generation without Battery

My experimental had dual ignitions that are electric dependent and I have 500+ hours and / 1000,000 miles without a single hiccup.. Altho I do have a 1000 CCA Optima battery to draw from, Not some lightweight / small capacity one...  YMMV.

 

 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject: Power Generation without Battery

I'm not sure if this message got through - apologies if this is a duplicate



Chris,



If  your mission profile could put you in the back country with ground  support hundreds of miles away, you may want to consider a few ideas:



1.  Consider changing architecture to 2 batteries & 1 alternator.  If  your only battery goes dead or has diminished capacity due to extreme  cold, you done.  Having an extra alternator won't get the engine  started.



2.  Maybe this is not the place for un-proven lithium battery technology.   Again, if your survival depends on it, you may want to go  w/ technology that has a proven track record.



-Jeff

  

     On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 3:20 PM, Ben <n801bh(at)netzero.net> wrote:  

   My experimental had dual ignitions that are electric dependent and I have 500+ hours and / 1000,000 miles without a single hiccup.. Altho I do have a 1000 CCA Optima battery to draw from, Not some lightweight / small capacity one...  YMMV.

 

 

Ben HaasN801BHwww.haaspowerair.com--------

JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Power Generation without Battery

Chris,



Check your PMs.

_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

jrevens

Joined: 21 Nov 2013
Posts: 34
Location: Arvada, CO

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Power Generation without Battery

I'll be purchasing a Rotax 912ULS in the near future, and in following some of the online forums there seems to be some confusion about the need & reason for the recommended 22,000 uf 25v capacitor in the charging circuit, as shown also in Bob's Z-16 diagram. I also read about the fairly common failure of the Rotax supplied voltage regulator. So in doing a little research I've come across the following replacement regulator made in Germany: 

http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_R_912.htm. (I'm not sure if this has been posted as a link or not... sorry). Anyway, if you run a translation program on this, the ad seems to be saying that the capacitor is there to allow the dynamo and regulator to work if the battery is disconnected.I don't think I've ever heard this before. I may be wrong. It also recommends a 33,000 uf 40v capacitor, saying the original recommended one is marginal in size. In the interest of furthering my knowledge, are there any comments about this? I apologize if this has already been discussed here, and if so, please do not archive.

_________________
John Evens
Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
Kitfox SS7 N27JE (built & flying)

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:12 pm Post subject: Power Generation without Battery

At 19:06 2015-02-08, you wrote:




I'll be purchasing a Rotax 912ULS in the near future, and in 

following some of the online forums there seems to be some confusion 

about the need & reason for the recommended 22,000 uf 25v capacitor 

in the charging circuit, as shown also in Bob's Z-16 diagram. I also 

read about the fairly common failure of the Rotax supplied voltage 

regulator. So in doing a little research I've come across the 

following replacement regulator made in Germany:

http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_R_912.htm. (I'm not sure if this has 

been posted as a link or not... sorry). Anyway, if you run a 

translation program on this, the ad seems to be saying that the 

capacitor is there to allow the dynamo and regulator to work if the 

battery is disconnected.I don't think I've ever heard this before. I 

may be wrong. It also recommends a 33,000 uf 40v capacitor, saying 

the original recommended one is marginal in size. In the interest of 

furthering my knowledge, are there any comments about this? I 

apologize if this has already been discussed here, and if so, please 

do not archive.



    I'll be researching both of these questions over the

    next few weeks. I'm hoping to get into B&C's lab next

    Tuesday to do some of preliminary tests.



    We'll be investigating a number of regulators for

    robustness and suitability to task. I'm amazed that

    the legacy Ducati R/R offered with the 912/914

    engine wasn't replaced or upgraded years ago. It

    has always been marginal.



    While I'm fiddling with R/R, I'll look at the

    self-excitation and sans-battery characteristics

    of these systems with and without a capacitor.

   Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1932
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Power Generation without Battery

I read about the SILENT-HEKTIK rectifier/regulator after Google translated the webpage to English.  It seems that the SILENT-HEKTIK has the same mounting footprint as the Ducati and the electrical connector is also the same.    So installation should be easy.  The cooling fins look to be much higher to give better cooling.  The SILENT-HEKTIK claims to be rated for 47 amps, which is more than twice the output of the Rotax dynamo.  The voltage output of the SILENT-HEKTIK is 14.2 volts which is also higher than the Ducati 13.8 volts.  Although the Ducati keeps my RV-12 battery charged just fine.

Heat is the enemy of electronics.  So the mounting location of the regulator is important.  The fins should be exposed to moving air. The SILENT-HEKTIK is expensive, but would be worth it if it does not fail.

  I thought about cutting a rectangular hole in my RV-12 fuselage skin and mounting the Ducati regulator with the fins protruding through the hole.  The slipstream should keep the regulator cool.  But I am concerned with aesthetics.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:48 am Post subject: Power Generation without Battery

 	  Quote: 	
		  Heat is the enemy of electronics.  So the mounting location of the 

regulator is important.  The fins should be exposed to moving air. 

The SILENT-HEKTIK is expensive, but would be worth it if it does not fail.


	


    Yeah sorta . . . the early days of semiconductor products were pretty

    tense with respect to potential for heat damage. There was a time

    when we were cautioned to grip the leads of a transistor with

    needle nose while soldering the puppies in lest milliBTUs run

    up the leads and toast the critter.



    A couple years ago I was working with a supplier of electronic

    assemblies to the aviation industry. Don had just finished doing

    some mods to the board of a rather complex actuator. He decided

    to do a quick look-see for performance at hi temp.



    He put the beast into the chamber at 100C and said, "let's get

    some lunch." When we came back, he ran it through the paces

    and deemed the thing healthy for continued service.



    I was surprised at his assertion that (within limits) just

    about any modern piece of electronics ought to shrug off

    those kinds of temperatures.



    The limits being established by how well internal energy

    dissipations were managed. The point is that technology

    and processes are in existence at this time to fabricate

    PM alternator regulators that will live happily under the

    cowl which, by the way, is not all that mean an environment.



    Unless subjected to radiant heating from exhaust stacks

    while deprived of any circulation, temperatures under the

    cowl are subject only to transient spiking . . . like

    long taxi ops on a hot day . . . or hot soaking at the

    pumps after shutdown.



    Few items of avionics need forced air cooling any more.

    The newer MOSFET regulators run rather cool even at

    20A . . . As far as we can tell, the Ducati product

    has not be materially updated in 20 years.



    The thrust of my studies in the near future will go to

    discovery of why and how B&C's product offers can be

    leveraged into the 21st century . . .

   Bob . . .

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:39 pm Post subject: Power Generation without Battery

Joe, Have you looked at the aftermarket regulators for Harley Davidson motorcycles? They're available from Accel among others and the regulators for the baggers handle 32 amps.



http://www.jpcycles.com/product/381-277



Rick Girard

On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 9:21 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I read about the SILENT-HEKTIK rectifier/regulator after Google translated the webpage to English.Â  It seems that the SILENT-HEKTIK has the same mounting footprint as the Ducati and the electrical connector is also the same.Â  Â  So installation should be easy.Â  The cooling fins look to be much higher to give better cooling.Â  The SILENT-HEKTIK claims to be rated for 47 amps, which is more than twice the output of the Rotax dynamo.Â  The voltage output of the SILENT-HEKTIK is 14.2 volts which is also higher than the Ducati 13.8 volts.Â  Although the Ducati keeps my RV-12 battery charged just fine.

 Heat is the enemy of electronics.Â  So the mounting location of the regulator is important.Â  The fins should be exposed to moving air. The SILENT-HEKTIK is expensive, but would be worth it if it does not fail.

 Â  I thought about cutting a rectangular hole in my RV-12 fuselage skin and mounting the Ducati regulator with the fins protruding through the hole.Â  The slipstream should keep the regulator cool.Â  But I am concerned with aesthetics.

 Joe

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1932
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Power Generation without Battery

Rick,

Thanks for the suggestion and link.

Joe

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Joe Gores

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