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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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 Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:40 pm Post subject: TR-1 gear |
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5/8/2015
Hello Tim, Thank you for the opportunity to clarify and comment on this
subject. You wrote:
A) “How thick of a Butyl rubber pad do you recommend under the gear.....”
1) I never used the term “butyl rubber pad”. Someone else attributed that to
me. I wrote: “Do you have some sort of thin elastomeric sheet between the
top of the landing gear cross bar and the bottom of the fuselage flox bed
that the cross bar fits up against? This is required to keep the relatively
hard aluminum cross bar from crumbling any cured flox high spots.”
2) My initial elastomeric pad was a piece of red “rubber” farm machinery
belting of unknown progeny and Durometer (hardness) purchased from a local
hardware store. It eventually wore out and I replaced it. I don’t remember
the thickness, but there is still a scrap of it lying around someplace that
could be measured if anyone cares.
3) I replaced the belting with this from McMaster-Carr: “8461K423
Adhesive-Black Medium-Strength Neoprene Rubber, 1/8” Thick, 4” Wide, 36” L,
Black, 40A Durometer” This material was trimmed to fit the entire top of the
landing gear cross bar where the cross bar came into contact with the flox
bed on the bottom of the fuselage. I would think that either 1/8 inch or 1/4
inch thickness would be acceptable.
4) I believe that contact between the entire top of the landing gear cross
bar and the flox bed with the elastomeric sheet in between is the best
(only?) way to install the KIS TR-1 landing gear. This may not be the case
with the 4 place KIS.
5) Because of 4 above I do not believe that Grove radius plates can be used
properly between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing gear
flox bed of the KIS TR-1 fuselage. This may not be true of the 4 place KIS.
http://www.groveaircraft.com/radiusplates.html
6) While Grove radius plates may be used on only the bottom of the KIS TR-1
landing gear cross bar to hold the landing gear cross bar up into the recess
on the bottom of the KIS TR-1 fuselage I question their contributing value
for that purpose. Note that all of the Grove illustrations and words have
either radius plates or radius blocks paired in use both above and below the
cross bar.
7) I could not use the Grove radius blocks to hold the landing gear cross
bar up into the recess on the bottom of the KIS TR-1 fuselage because none
of the hole spacing in the radius blocks matched the already existing hole
spacing in my KIS TR-1 fuselage recess.
B) “....... have you canted the gear forward on your KIS?”
Yes, my flox bed is wedge shaped to accomplish this. See the attached spread
sheet for measurements. With the flox wedging used to bias the main gear
forward my landing gear main axles centerlines are at Station 72.25 inches.
Note that page FUS 3-12, dated November 6, 1992, of the Builder’s Manual
calls for the main axles centerlines to be at Station 73.5 inches, so I
gained a forward movement of 1.25 inches for the main axle location with
that wedge. I am curious what other KIS TR-1 builders have for their main
gear centerline locations.
OC
=======================================================
From: Tim Yoder
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 8:02 AM
To: OC Baker
Subject: TR-1 gear
Hi OC,
How thick of a Butyl rubber pad do you recommend under the gear and have you
canted the gear forward on your KIS?
Thanks,
Tim
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:36 pm Post subject: TR-1 gear |
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EXCELLENT info OC. So if I read this right you don't have any plate (radius or non radius) between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing gear flox bed, just the elastomeric sheet. What did you use on the bottom of the landing gear cross bar?
On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 4:40 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]5/8/2015
Hello Tim, Thank you for the opportunity to clarify and comment on this subject. You wrote:
A) “How thick of a Butyl rubber pad do you recommend under the gear....”
1) I never used the term “butyl rubber pad”. Someone else attributed that to me. I wrote: “Do you have some sort of thin elastomeric sheet between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the bottom of the fuselage flox bed that the cross bar fits up against? This is required to keep the relatively hard aluminum cross bar from crumbling any cured flox high spots.”
2) My initial elastomeric pad was a piece of red “rubber” farm machinery belting of unknown progeny and Durometer (hardness) purchased from a local hardware store. It eventually wore out and I replaced it. I don’t remember the thickness, but there is still a scrap of it lying around someplace that could be measured if anyone cares.
3) I replaced the belting with this from McMaster-Carr: “8461K423 Adhesive-Black Medium-Strength Neoprene Rubber, 1/8” Thick, 4” Wide, 36” L, Black, 40A Durometer” This material was trimmed to fit the entire top of the landing gear cross bar where the cross bar came into contact with the flox bed on the bottom of the fuselage. I would think that either 1/8 inch or 1/4 inch thickness would be acceptable.
4) I believe that contact between the entire top of the landing gear cross bar and the flox bed with the elastomeric sheet in between is the best (only?) way to install the KIS TR-1 landing gear. This may not be the case with the 4 place KIS.
5) Because of 4 above I do not believe that Grove radius plates can be used properly between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing gear flox bed of the KIS TR-1 fuselage. This may not be true of the 4 place KIS.
http://www.groveaircraft.com/radiusplates.html
6) While Grove radius plates may be used on only the bottom of the KIS TR-1 landing gear cross bar to hold the landing gear cross bar up into the recess on the bottom of the KIS TR-1 fuselage I question their contributing value for that purpose. Note that all of the Grove illustrations and words have either radius plates or radius blocks paired in use both above and below the cross bar.
7) I could not use the Grove radius blocks to hold the landing gear cross bar up into the recess on the bottom of the KIS TR-1 fuselage because none of the hole spacing in the radius blocks matched the already existing hole spacing in my KIS TR-1 fuselage recess.
B) “....... have you canted the gear forward on your KIS?”
Yes, my flox bed is wedge shaped to accomplish this. See the attached spread sheet for measurements. With the flox wedging used to bias the main gear forward my landing gear main axles centerlines are at Station 72.25 inches. Note that page FUS 3-12, dated November 6, 1992, of the Builder’s Manual calls for the main axles centerlines to be at Station 73.5 inches, so I gained a forward movement of 1.25 inches for the main axle location with that wedge. I am curious what other KIS TR-1 builders have for their main gear centerline locations.
OC
=====
From: Tim Yoder
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 8:02 AM
To: OC Baker
Subject: TR-1 gear
Hi OC,
How thick of a Butyl rubber pad do you recommend under the gear and have you canted the gear forward on your KIS?
Thanks,
Tim
[b]
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flyinisfun90(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:33 pm Post subject: TR-1 gear |
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I don't know where I got this idea but I bought a truck inter-tube and cut the size I needed and put that between the gear and the fuselage. I made somewhat of a jig, very crude, to hold the gear at the angle I needed to cant it forward. Then I used some contact spray and stuck the tube to the gear, laid down a bed of floxed epoxy, re-positioned the gear with the jig and then snugged down the gear bolts. This squeezed out some epoxy and I don't think I have any high spots between the gear and the fuselage. I don't have all that many landings but I have no sign of things breaking up. I took it all apart after it hardened and rubbed the rubber down with silicone grease. One person's approach,
Jesse
On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 3:34 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]EXCELLENT info OC. So if I read this right you don't have any plate (radius or non radius) between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing gear flox bed, just the elastomeric sheet. What did you use on the bottom of the landing gear cross bar?
On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 4:40 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | 5/8/2015
Hello Tim, Thank you for the opportunity to clarify and comment on this subject. You wrote:
A) “How thick of a Butyl rubber pad do you recommend under the gear....”
1) I never used the term “butyl rubber pad”. Someone else attributed that to me. I wrote: “Do you have some sort of thin elastomeric sheet between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the bottom of the fuselage flox bed that the cross bar fits up against? This is required to keep the relatively hard aluminum cross bar from crumbling any cured flox high spots.”
2) My initial elastomeric pad was a piece of red “rubber” farm machinery belting of unknown progeny and Durometer (hardness) purchased from a local hardware store. It eventually wore out and I replaced it. I don’t remember the thickness, but there is still a scrap of it lying around someplace that could be measured if anyone cares.
3) I replaced the belting with this from McMaster-Carr: “8461K423 Adhesive-Black Medium-Strength Neoprene Rubber, 1/8” Thick, 4” Wide, 36” L, Black, 40A Durometer” This material was trimmed to fit the entire top of the landing gear cross bar where the cross bar came into contact with the flox bed on the bottom of the fuselage. I would think that either 1/8 inch or 1/4 inch thickness would be acceptable.
4) I believe that contact between the entire top of the landing gear cross bar and the flox bed with the elastomeric sheet in between is the best (only?) way to install the KIS TR-1 landing gear. This may not be the case with the 4 place KIS.
5) Because of 4 above I do not believe that Grove radius plates can be used properly between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing gear flox bed of the KIS TR-1 fuselage. This may not be true of the 4 place KIS.
http://www.groveaircraft.com/radiusplates.html
6) While Grove radius plates may be used on only the bottom of the KIS TR-1 landing gear cross bar to hold the landing gear cross bar up into the recess on the bottom of the KIS TR-1 fuselage I question their contributing value for that purpose. Note that all of the Grove illustrations and words have either radius plates or radius blocks paired in use both above and below the cross bar.
7) I could not use the Grove radius blocks to hold the landing gear cross bar up into the recess on the bottom of the KIS TR-1 fuselage because none of the hole spacing in the radius blocks matched the already existing hole spacing in my KIS TR-1 fuselage recess.
B) “....... have you canted the gear forward on your KIS?”
Yes, my flox bed is wedge shaped to accomplish this. See the attached spread sheet for measurements. With the flox wedging used to bias the main gear forward my landing gear main axles centerlines are at Station 72.25 inches. Note that page FUS 3-12, dated November 6, 1992, of the Builder’s Manual calls for the main axles centerlines to be at Station 73.5 inches, so I gained a forward movement of 1.25 inches for the main axle location with that wedge. I am curious what other KIS TR-1 builders have for their main gear centerline locations.
OC
=====
From: Tim Yoder
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 8:02 AM
To: OC Baker
Subject: TR-1 gear
Hi OC,
How thick of a Butyl rubber pad do you recommend under the gear and have you canted the gear forward on your KIS?
Thanks,
Tim
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 4:26 am Post subject: TR-1 gear |
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5/9/2015
Hello Galin, You wrote:
1) “So if I read this right you don't have any plate (radius or non radius)
between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing gear flox bed,
just the elastomeric sheet.”
That is correct, just the elastomeric sheet. I was attempting to comply with
the following extract from PAGE FUS 3 - 11, dated November 6, 1992, of the
KIS TR-1 Builder’s Manual:**
“It is recommended that a thin layer of rubber sheeting (inner tube rubber
or similar) be lightly tacked to the upper mating surface of the landing
gear to avoid local concentrated loading of the composite. Apply a thin
layer of a thick mixture of FLOX to the rubber covered upper surface of the
gear, and apply added flox on the recessed surface around any shims which
may have been added to the recess area. Lightly torque the bolts holding the
gear in place, and correct any positioning before the FLOX cures. Clean away
surplus FLOX before it becomes fully cured. The FLOX will provide a uniform
bedding for the gear, filling curvature and voids. The rubber should provide
for ease in separation of the gear from the recess, as well as providing
cushioning against the destructive effects of point loads into the
composite. If there are too many voids in the FLOX covered areas, the
process of coating the surface with FLOX can be repeated concentrating on
void areas, and squeezing out surplus FLOX."##
2) "What did you use on the bottom of the landing gear cross bar?"
Just the two steel retaining straps provided with my kit. The straps are
plain flat bars about one inch wide and 1/4 inch thick. Here is an extract
from the same page as above:
"Drill a matching set of 5/16-inch holes in the steel (4130) retaining
straps, and countersink to set the bolt heads flush with the surface. Using
the large bearing washers provided in the kit on the inner fuselage side of
the mounting holes, and MS 24694-S 178 bolts, trial assemble the gear legs
to the fuselage (use minimum torque on the nuts to close up gaps but not
deflect structure). Check that the assembly is square to the aircraft
centerline, the legs are level on each side, and the axle centerline will be
located at STA 73.5. Use thin wood shims tacked in place with 5-minute epoxy
to correct any noted misalignment."
I used AN5 bolts with no countersinking. It is a pretty crude looking
installation, just like some piece of farm machinery.
OC
**PS: With a nod of deep appreciation to the person that provided a copy of
the manual on a CD. Hans Christian Erstad / Hartley Heaton ????
##PS: Here is probably where Jesse Wright got this idea: "I don't know where
I got this idea but I bought a truck inter-tube and cut
the size I needed and put that between the gear and the fuselage."
=======================================================
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 5:34 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: TR-1 gear
EXCELLENT info OC. So if I read this right you don't have any plate (radius
or non radius) between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing
gear flox bed, just the elastomeric sheet. What did you use on the bottom of
the landing gear cross bar?
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fredorosa(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 5:42 am Post subject: TR-1 gear |
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Galin,
OC's method follows the manual instructions for the TR1. I'm not sure what the manual says about the TR 4. I insisted on Grove landing gear components with my kit because people were dissatisfied with the performance of the supplied Matco brakes.
I recommend using the Grove radius blocks. I put about 12 layers of glass
Between the fuselage and the blocks
at each attach point to spread out the shock and strengthen the attach points. In the cabin I also put about 12 layers of glass where the bolts come through. The nuts are tightened down on a fender washer against a thick rubber washer to absorb some shock. See picture in following message.
| Quote: | On May 9, 2015, at 8:26 AM, "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:
5/9/2015
Hello Galin, You wrote:
1) “So if I read this right you don't have any plate (radius or non radius) between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing gear flox bed, just the elastomeric sheet.”
That is correct, just the elastomeric sheet. I was attempting to comply with the following extract from PAGE FUS 3 - 11, dated November 6, 1992, of the KIS TR-1 Builder’s Manual:**
“It is recommended that a thin layer of rubber sheeting (inner tube rubber or similar) be lightly tacked to the upper mating surface of the landing gear to avoid local concentrated loading of the composite. Apply a thin layer of a thick mixture of FLOX to the rubber covered upper surface of the gear, and apply added flox on the recessed surface around any shims which may have been added to the recess area. Lightly torque the bolts holding the gear in place, and correct any positioning before the FLOX cures. Clean away surplus FLOX before it becomes fully cured. The FLOX will provide a uniform bedding for the gear, filling curvature and voids. The rubber should provide for ease in separation of the gear from the recess, as well as providing cushioning against the destructive effects of point loads into the composite. If there are too many voids in the FLOX covered areas, the process of coating the surface with FLOX can be repeated concentrating on void areas, and squeezing out surplus FLOX."##
2) "What did you use on the bottom of the landing gear cross bar?"
Just the two steel retaining straps provided with my kit. The straps are plain flat bars about one inch wide and 1/4 inch thick. Here is an extract from the same page as above:
"Drill a matching set of 5/16-inch holes in the steel (4130) retaining straps, and countersink to set the bolt heads flush with the surface. Using the large bearing washers provided in the kit on the inner fuselage side of the mounting holes, and MS 24694-S 178 bolts, trial assemble the gear legs to the fuselage (use minimum torque on the nuts to close up gaps but not deflect structure). Check that the assembly is square to the aircraft centerline, the legs are level on each side, and the axle centerline will be located at STA 73.5. Use thin wood shims tacked in place with 5-minute epoxy to correct any noted misalignment."
I used AN5 bolts with no countersinking. It is a pretty crude looking installation, just like some piece of farm machinery.
OC
**PS: With a nod of deep appreciation to the person that provided a copy of the manual on a CD. Hans Christian Erstad / Hartley Heaton ????
##PS: Here is probably where Jesse Wright got this idea: "I don't know where I got this idea but I bought a truck inter-tube and cut
the size I needed and put that between the gear and the fuselage."
=======================================================
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 5:34 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: TR-1 gear
EXCELLENT info OC. So if I read this right you don't have any plate (radius or non radius) between the top of the landing gear cross bar and the landing gear flox bed, just the elastomeric sheet. What did you use on the bottom of the landing gear cross bar?
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