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Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings

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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings

Rant mode on; drinkers of the 'Van's can do no wrong' koolaid, please 

stop & delete now.



Several weeks (months?) ago I built up all the fuselage bulkheads 

including the main spar carry-thru for my -7 kit. I carefully followed 

all the directions/drawing indications I could find, especially on the 

spar carrythru bulkhead. I noted & carefully followed the exploded views 

on dwg 11 (rev 10-16-00) & later, dwg 22 (rev 10-27-00) showing the 

bolts for the F633 L&R control brackets & all the F716 seat ribs with 

the heads to the rear, threads forward.



I built up the tail cone. I completed the prep work for final assy of 

the midsection. I began the riveting of the midsection several days ago 

& today, neared completion of the riveting.



While studying dwg 22 section views to determine the orientation of the 

bolts through the F715 seat ribs, I noticed that they show nuts on the 

rib flange of all the F716 seat ribs where they bolt to the F704 spar 

carry-thru. 'Curses; must have not been paying attention when I bolted 

this stuff together.' (Bad medium term memory of earlier careful study 

of plans.) Out came the wrenches, re-oriented all the F716 bolts, 

retorqued. Happened to glance at the exploded view on the same dwg. All 

rib bolts drawn with head on the rib flange. I checked dwg 11 exploded 

view for the F633 bolts; it's inconsistent with the section view on dwg 

22 also. Errors/inconsistencies #742 & 743 (guesstimate  ) noted in 

the plans and/or instructions. By the way, this same section in the 

instructions tells you to cleco in & drill the seat & baggage floors 

without telling you to install the baggage ribs at all & before they 

mention installing the F715 seat ribs, which must be curved by the 

builder, have centerlines drawn on their bottom flanges (not 

prepunched), & be match drilled to the belly skin. My revision of dwg 

shows the control stick walking beam assy to the spar with bolts 

oriented in a fashion that cannot be achieved under the current laws of 

physics. When I called about that, the tech guy had different 

orientation for some of the bolts, on his dwg with the same revision 

date. Excuse: 'Well, sometimes minor changes are made without changing 

the rev date/number.' His 1st suggested change also could not be 

achieved under the current laws of physics. The final result was 

basically, 'assemble it however you can to get it to work.'



I've lost count of the number of times I've called the tech guys at 

Van's to politely question or point out this kind of stuff & asked 

repeatedly why they don't offer a section of the website with 

corrections & updates. They are usually courteous, but I invariably get 

various lame excuses like 'you should read ahead', you should know how 

it's done', 'well, when we built the prototype, we didn't have the 

instructions', etc etc etc. Sometimes they say they will bring up the 

issue 'at a staff meeting' but rarely if ever do they act like the 

issues are any big deal. Never is there any feedback or encouragement to 

continue reporting this stuff & with a single exception (defective AL 

bar stock) never an admission that others have had the same issue.



Ok, rant mode off.



Question: should I care which way the F716 bolts are oriented (currently 

head forward, nut/washer on rib) or the F633 bolts (currently head on 

F633)? The belly skin rivets under the F716 bolts will be less 

convenient to drive, but still 'doable'.



Suggestion:



We all take advantage of Matt's wiki to add a section for each model & 

sub sections for each assy or part that we have problems understanding 

or that are obvious errors/inconsistencies. The entries should document 

the plan revision date and/or the instruction revision date. This should 

help us all by consolidating records of problem areas, something Van's 

is obviously unwilling to do.



Is this a worthwhile suggestion?



(Again, koolaid drinkers please don't reply.)



Thanks,



Charlie

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Brian Gawronski

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 3

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings

I feel your pain.  I’ve wasted countless hours attempting to decipher Van’s instructions.  I find them poorly organized, lacking necessary detail, and at times ambiguous.



After designing a great airplane, the single best thing Van could do for his customers would be to document the assembly process from the perspective of a first-time builder.  Really build a kit, start to finish, exactly according to the instructions.  This would allow them to find and fix errors and omissions.  I believe Van’s thinks their plans are accurate and complete, but the authors perhaps know too much about the assembly to realize how much they take for granted.  However, not maintaining rigorous revision control is inexcusable, and indicates a lack of respect for their customers.



I’d happily buy the documentation that would eliminate the hours spent staring at the plans instead of building, or worse, having to disassemble and rebuild, because I can’t read minds or see into the future.  Read ahead?  Okay, but let’s please be reasonable.  



This is supposed to be fun, right?

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Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings

 	  Quote: 	
		  I checked dwg 11 

 exploded 

 view for the F633 bolts; it's inconsistent with the section 

 view on dwg 

 22 also. Errors/inconsistencies #742 & 743 (guesstimate  ) 

 noted in 

 the plans and/or instructions.


	


It's been awhile -- two years -- but I vaguely remember this part. However,

I didn't bother too much with the plans because there was -- as I recall --

another issue which solved the question for me -- access to the bolt head

(or maybe it was a nut) in the future. Anyway, as I recall -- without the

specifics -- there was no way for me to EASILY check on those nuts (to see

if they were working loose except if I oriented them one way (I have

removable floors). There have been certain phases of the build, I've

noticed, where it's helpful for me to slow down a bit and say "OK, this

might be the easiest way to BUILD it, but what's the easiest and best way to

accommodate an inspection once I'm built. YMMV.



I think the suggestion is a good one. I think the thread could prove helpful

ONLY if we can separate the suggestion from characterizing other people one

way or the other. 



I'm loathe to have another week of deleting messages that really have no

value to the build process, especially when the essence of the thread is

about building. 



Do not archive.

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_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

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