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pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: Moving on...

Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I received a committment from a buyer that they are buying my Murphy Rebel!



This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new aircraft.  I am 99% decided on the Lightning.  I still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer versions and want to do so before making a commitment.  Additionally, I will need to plan out my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the aircraft in a timely manner.



If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership questions for you.



What are the general insurance costs?  (I have about 170 hours flight time)

What is a realistic time to complete with builder assist?

Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, or do the sales centers have enough experience with this new design?  I live in central PA and I was impressed with Green Landings.



What type of other questions would you want answered before you buy?



Thanks for your help.  This list is refreshingly open and informative.



Jim Langley

cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: Moving on...

Jim- Great news about you selling your plane.

Congrats! I can answer one of your ?'s. I talked to

Jim Nelson at Falcon Insurance and was told insurance

was about 4K a year if I remember correctly, and I

have only 70 hours. He said that because the Lightning

is essentially an Esqual hybrid, it has a proven

safety record and is therefore easily and

inexpensively insurable.   Charles

--- pequeajim <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <pequeajim(at)gmail.com>

 

 Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I

 received a committment from a buyer that they are

 buying my Murphy Rebel!

 

 This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new

 aircraft.  I am 99% decided on the Lightning.  I

 still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer

 versions and want to do so before making a

 commitment.  Additionally, I will need to plan out

 my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the

 aircraft in a timely manner.

 

 If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership

 questions for you.

 

 What are the general insurance costs?  (I have about

 170 hours flight time)

 What is a realistic time to complete with builder

 assist?

 Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville,

 or do the sales centers have enough experience with

 this new design?  I live in central PA and I was

 impressed with Green Landings.

 

 What type of other questions would you want answered

 before you buy?

 

 Thanks for your help.  This list is refreshingly

 open and informative.

 

 Jim Langley

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90003#90003
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List



 Web Forums!



 

 

 

 


	


 

Get your own web address.  

http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: Moving on...

Thanks for the feedback Charles.  I would expect a little less on the insurance since I have more time, but do not know what that figure might be.  By the time the aircraft is flying, I would expect to be over 200 hours. 

  

 BTW, it would be great to have it done for Oshkosh!



 

 On 1/23/07, Charles Dewey <cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com (cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Lightning-List message posted by: Charles Dewey <cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com  (cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com)>



Jim- Great news about you selling your plane.

Congrats! I can answer one of your ?'s. I talked to

Jim Nelson at Falcon Insurance and was told insurance

was about 4K a year if I remember correctly, and I 

have only 70 hours. He said that because the Lightning

is essentially an Esqual hybrid, it has a proven

safety record and is therefore easily and

inexpensively insurable.   Charles

--- pequeajim < pequeajim(at)gmail.com (pequeajim(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Lightning-List message posted by: "pequeajim"

 <pequeajim(at)gmail.com (pequeajim(at)gmail.com)>



 Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I 

 received a committment from a buyer that they are

 buying my Murphy Rebel!



 This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new

 aircraft.  I am 99% decided on the Lightning.  I

 still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer 

 versions and want to do so before making a

 commitment.  Additionally, I will need to plan out

 my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the

 aircraft in a timely manner.



 If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership 

 questions for you.



 What are the general insurance costs?  (I have about

 170 hours flight time)

 What is a realistic time to complete with builder

 assist?

 Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, 

 or do the sales centers have enough experience with

 this new design?  I live in central PA and I was

 impressed with Green Landings.



 What type of other questions would you want answered 

 before you buy?



 Thanks for your help.  This list is refreshingly

 open and informative.



 Jim Langley





 Read this topic online here:

 



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90003#90003
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  



 browse

 Subscriptions page, 

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List



 Web Forums!




	




 

[b]

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Moving on...

Jim,

     Congratulations on the sale of your Rebel.   Deciding on your new airplane will be an exciting time.  I am sure many on  this list will be happy to "help" with your decision.  Now to take a "stab"  at your questions.

  

 What are the general insurance costs?  (I have  about 170 hours flight time)

 Flying time is only part of the  equation.  Do you want in flight hull coverage as well as liability?   How much hull coverage do you want?  Will the airplane be  hangared?   I have 31BZ hangared and insured for $85K and a million  liability.  I have somewhere between 6 and 7 thousand hours and the cost is  about $1700 a year.  

  

 What is a realistic time to complete with builder  assist?

 A lot depends on your schedule, but  plan on about three weeks of your time in Shelbyville (don't know about Green  "Acres") plus about that much time for their painter also - so plan on at least  6 weeks to get to the FAA inspection.  



 Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, or  do the sales centers have enough experience with this new design?  I live  in central PA and I was impressed with Green Landings.

 You will find great people in both  places.  I have not seen the Green "Acres" facilities, but I know the guys  and they have one flying and at least one building.  Talk to both places  about schedules, paint shops, avionics experience, etc., and what the local FAA  or DAR is like.  How quickly will the local FAA/DAR respond to your  inspection request?  Do both places charge the same amount for the builders  assist?  Will you be flying your time off at their place?  If so, what  is the local flying test area like as far as terrain and emergency landing  places?  What about motel accommodations / cost in each  area.  If it matters, ask what there is to do in the local on weekends  or when you are not busy building.  



What type of other  questions would you want answered before you buy?

 What does your secretary look  like?  Just kidding.  I think we covered the main concerns.   Others will likely have good suggestions as well.

  

 Jim, it will probably be a while  until they have a demonstrator flying to take prospective Lightning buyers for a  flight.  I would be happy to take you for a flight in 31BZ.  I have  taken other Lightning buyers for demo flights.  We can do that in  Virginia or the next time I am in SYI - probably early February.  My Esqual  is modified with Lightning parts and is pretty close to the prototype in  performance.  But I will admit the Lightning flys better - slightly faster,  slightly more aileron and rudder authority, and more stable on final.   

  

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

 



  [quote][b]

IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: Moving on...

Great answers Buzz: The insurance costs you quote  are right in line with what it costs me to insure the Bonanza. Jim, it may pay  you to check with someone besides Falcon. I found about 10 years ago that other  agents may be several hundred dollars cheaper (and still are)

  

 Buzz, I was told at the Expo in Sebring that one could put a Lightning  together for about $65,000. But from what you have said, it appears that it will  cost at least 75 and probably closer to 85,000?

 It appears that I may be able to sell the Bonanza, but I will have a real  problem if the cost is so high.

     I definitely like and want the Lightning, but cost  is a real bugaboo!

 Lynn

  [quote][b]

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: Moving on...

Actually I think that the cost of the Hobbs machine I was told was closer to 

$56k.  I think that Buz was saying that he insured it for more because if he 

were to resale the airplane now that it is complete and has the bugs worked 

out it'd be worth that much more.  It really comes down to avionics in the 

longrun as you basically have one choice of engine and the airframe costs 

are the same.  Brian W.



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Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into 

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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:41 am Post subject: Moving on...

Lynn,

     Up until about two years ago, I had all of my  airplanes insured with AVEMCO.  When they opted out of insuring  experimentals is when EAA went to Falcon as their "official" insurer.   AVEMCO did continue to insure my Pitts since I had been with them for so long,  but when I finished the Esqual they did not want to take on any other  experimental aircraft.  I still have my Cub with AVEMCO as they were much  cheaper than Falcon on it.  In fact over the years when I had three  airplanes insured with AVEMCO they were normally at least a thousand dollars  cheaper on the total insurance bill.  My M-35 Bonanza was a past Oshkosh  and Sun-N-Fun champion and I had it covered for $85K, the J-3 Cub Sport was a  past antique champion as well and it was covered for $30K, and the Pitts was  covered for $30.  AVEMCO at the time had an EAA discount if you were a  member, a chapter discount if you were in a local EAA chapter, and a multi-plane  discount since you can only fly one at a time.  With my flying time the  total bill on all three was only around $2500 - a great price.  Every few  years I would try to get a quote from other companies and, as I said above, the  other companies could never come close to AVEMCO's coverages and price.   Too bad they don't still do experimentals.  

     Falcon will actually give you two quotes, one with  the EAA association benefits, and another without.  I think the two numbers  actually come from different providers.  Remember, Falcon is an agency and  look for coverages from other insurers.  AVEMCO, on the other hand, is the  insurer itself.  You can certainly shop around and maybe find experimental  coverage cheaper, but the Falcon agents do seem to understand the experimental  market and the types of aircraft.  Falcon is also the insurer for the  American Bonanza Society and the International Aerobatic Club (division of  EAA).  

     One other thought on insurance.  If possible,  talk to others that have had claims with any company you are considering and see  how they were treated.  Over a period of 15 years or so, I had two bird  strikes with the Bonanza.  The first one was coming home from Oshkosh - hit  a bird on the left nose gear door in the landing pattern in Ohio.  The  next, many years later, was in my local area and was a seagull hit on the nose  bowl.  AVEMCO was great in both cases, quick to be sure my  airplane was brought back to original condition and that I was happy, and also  covering other expenses that I had while it was being fixed.  And no, I  don't work for AVEMCO.  Just a happy customer.  Just my $.02, your  mileage may vary.

     Lynn, as to cost to build, I think you can put an  Lightning together for somewhere around $55K if you use "round dial" instruments  and build it at home.  Plan on the ball park figure of $65K if you use the  builder assist.  The price goes up from these numbers as you upgrade your  instrument panel and add things like auto pilot, etc.  My panel has all the  bells and whistles with a great auto pilot, but it is all experimental  equipment.  If you go the certified equipment route it is easy to perhaps  have more in the panel than you have in the engine/airframe.  And remember  my airframe has numerous mods that added time and dollars, and a really nice  interior.  All of these run the overall price up.  The standard  Lightning kit includes all of the mods that I did, so you are covered there when  you buy the kit.  (Note: the Lightning kit is at about $10K less than the  Esqual kit and already includes all the mods I did to my Esqual.)  I have  not seen a completed standard Lightning interior (the prototype was  basic) but when they finish their demonstrator, that will give you a good idea  what the standard kit will include for that.  Bottom line, I think the  Lightning is the best bang for the buck in experimental aircraft kits that can  be built quickly and have the overall performance envelope that it  provides.  It certainly meets every aspect of its design goals.   

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

  [quote][b]

vettin74(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: Moving on...

It is true that a builder who built the plane themselves with out the Build assist the cost would be about this for a good VFR aircraft: $33,900 kit, $14,900 jabiru 6 cyl, 

  $800 W64ZK56 prop, $850 speed kit, $5000 paint, $2800 GRT sport, $900 EIS6000, 

  $3100 Becker Radio/ Transponder combo,  $200 PM501 intercom, $3000 interior, and maybe an extra $1000 for all the little odds and ends, and you still are at about $61,450 and those are rounded up numbers.   Now if you add $3,000 per week of build assist , 3 weeks worth ,  a Panel pre-wire from us $1,200, and a custom panel face from us $600 than you might be at $72,250 so it depends if you want to build your self ...or come build with us......either way you will have a great flying aircraft.

   

  Nick



IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com wrote:

  [quote]        Great answers Buzz: The insurance costs you quote are right in line with what it costs me to insure the Bonanza. Jim, it may pay you to check with someone besides Falcon. I found about 10 years ago that other agents may be several hundred dollars cheaper (and still are)

   

  Buzz, I was told at the Expo in Sebring that one could put a Lightning together for about $65,000. But from what you have said, it appears that it will cost at least 75 and probably closer to 85,000?

  It appears that I may be able to sell the Bonanza, but I will have a real problem if the cost is so high.

      I definitely like and want the Lightning, but cost is a real bugaboo!

  Lynn

[quote][b]No need to miss a message. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get email on-the-go [/url]

with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get started.[/url] [quote][b]

Daniel Vandenberg

Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 22

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: Moving on...

Nick or Pete...a few questons:



Is there any cost for storage of the kit/airplane at your facility between builder-assist weeks?



How long could a builder keep the kit with you guys between builder-assist weeks before you guys get uncomfortable?



What would be an estimated cost to have your staff do the test flying, rigging adjustments, and fly off the initial 40 hours on a newly built Lightning?



Is interior upholstery similar to Buzz's Esqual LS interior available for the Lightning?



Finally...I was watching the video of Brian's landing in Gregg Hobbs airplane on the web site.  It's a little fuzzy, but if I'm not mistaken it looks like (after the mains bounced once) the nose gear comes down and then bounces up before coming down a second time.  This leads to a question:  How is the elevator authority on runout?  Is it sufficient to allow the nose to be held off briefly...and then lowered gently to the runway?  Not  trying to be critical...just want to be assured that the weight differential between the main gear and the nosewheel has been optimized.



Thanks...



Dan



nick otterback <vettin74(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] It is true that a builder who built the plane themselves with out the Build assist the cost would be about this for a good VFR aircraft: $33,900 kit, $14,900 jabiru 6 cyl, 

  $800 W64ZK56 prop, $850 speed kit, $5000 paint, $2800 GRT sport, $900 EIS6000, 

  $3100 Becker Radio/ Transponder combo,  $200 PM501 intercom, $3000 interior, and maybe an extra $1000 for all the little odds and ends, and you still are at about $61,450 and those are rounded up numbers.   Now if you add $3,000 per week of build assist , 3 weeks worth ,  a Panel pre-wire from us $1,200, and a custom panel  face from us $600 than you might be at $72,250 so it depends if you want to build your self ...or come build with us......either way you will have a great flying aircraft.

   

  Nick



IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com wrote:

  [quote]        Great answers Buzz: The insurance costs you quote are right in line with what it costs me to insure the Bonanza. Jim, it may pay you to check with someone besides Falcon. I found about 10 years ago that other agents may be several hundred dollars cheaper (and still are)

   

  Buzz, I was told at the Expo in Sebring that one could put a Lightning together for about  We won't tell. Get more on [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ]shows you hate to love[/url]

(and love to hate): [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ]Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.[/url] [quote][b]

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: Moving on...

Dan,

   The guys do keep the plane inside between builder assist.  I'm not sure 

for how long they do it before feeling uncomfortable and they'd have to 

answer that one.  Nick usually flies the first 5 hours or so and makes sure 

the rigging is right.  Then a lot of times they hand it over to me to fly 

the rest of the time off.  I usually charge a pretty fair/affordable price 

on that.



Dang, they did put the worst landing that I've made in years on the internet 

didn't they?  The plane has plenty of elevator authority, and it was 

actually a pretty approach.  Problem was that was in the Hobbs Lightning 

which he had done all the flying in and not let us do any of the test 

flying.  The rigging was out and there were some issues with the way that he 

mounted the horizontal stabilizer.  Problem on that flight was that 

everytime that I trimmed I noticed the stick forces got stronger, not 

weaker.  i.e. it was trimming the wrong way.  That had to do with the way 

the tail was put on not being quiet right.  So I reversed my thinking and it 

worked better, but still ran short on trim.  I could fully trim it to the 

stops and let go of the stick and everything hit the canopy with it trying 

to nose over.  It took the guys some time to figure out the problem and get 

the trim issue solved since his tailfeathers were on wrong.  After that the 

plane flew much better.  The video was before that issue was solved and when 

the plane landed it needed to be landed like a taildragger in that you 

needed to put the stick all the way back.  I landed it like a nosedragger 

and the nosedown tendency from the trim issues come into play and the nose 

dropped, the front gear hit and sprang us back into the air.



Another thing to note is that Greg's plane was built before there was any 

kind of builder manual and it is almost like prototype 1.5 if you will.  

Greg's plane is something like 200lbs heavier empty weight than other 

production planes.  It also had a much further aft CG when empty than others 

and would nearly set on its tail if you bumped it.  My thinking on that 

landing was to not scrape the tail.  I've got about 1,500 landings and that 

would be the worst in years.  Oh well, at least there's video of the planes 

in flight.  Brian W.

From: Daniel Vandenberg <djvdb63(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Moving on...

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:46:51 -0800 (PST)



Nick or Pete...a few questons:



Is there any cost for storage of the kit/airplane at your facility between 

builder-assist weeks?



How long could a builder keep the kit with you guys between builder-assist 

weeks before you guys get uncomfortable?



What would be an estimated cost to have your staff do the test flying, 

rigging adjustments, and fly off the initial 40 hours on a newly built 

Lightning?



Is interior upholstery similar to Buzz's Esqual LS interior available for 

the Lightning?



Finally...I was watching the video of Brian's landing in Gregg Hobbs 

airplane on the web site.  It's a little fuzzy, but if I'm not mistaken it 

looks like (after the mains bounced once) the nose gear comes down and then 

bounces up before coming down a second time.  This leads to a question:  How 

is the elevator authority on runout?  Is it sufficient to allow the nose to 

be held off briefly...and then lowered gently to the runway?  Not trying to 

be critical...just want to be assured that the weight differential between 

the main gear and the nosewheel has been optimized.



Thanks...



Dan



nick otterback <vettin74(at)yahoo.com> wrote: It is true that a builder who 

built the plane themselves with out the Build assist the cost would be about 

this for a good VFR aircraft: $33,900 kit, $14,900 jabiru 6 cyl,

   $800 W64ZK56 prop, $850 speed kit, $5000 paint, $2800 GRT sport, $900 

EIS6000,

   $3100 Becker Radio/ Transponder combo,  $200 PM501 intercom, $3000 

interior, and maybe an extra $1000 for all the little odds and ends, and you 

still are at about $61,450 and those are rounded up numbers.   Now if you 

add $3,000 per week of build assist , 3 weeks worth ,  a Panel pre-wire from 

us $1,200, and a custom panel face from us $600 than you might be at $72,250 

so it depends if you want to build your self ...or come build with 

us......either way you will have a great flying aircraft.



   Nick



IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com wrote:

           Great answers Buzz: The insurance costs you quote are right in 

line with what it costs me to insure the Bonanza. Jim, it may pay you to 

check with someone besides Falcon. I found about 10 years ago that other 

agents may be several hundred dollars cheaper (and still are)



   Buzz, I was told at the Expo in Sebring that one could put a Lightning 

together for about $65,000. But from what you have said, it appears that it 

will cost at least 75 and probably closer to 85,000?

   It appears that I may be able to sell the Bonanza, but I will have a real 

problem if the cost is so high.

       I definitely like and want the Lightning, but cost is a real bugaboo!

   Lynn

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