AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-af
May 22, 2001 - June 26, 2001
rotax 912.
Thanks.
--- Larry Bowen wrote:
> Bowen"
>
> Have you considered heated seats instead? I know
> that doesn't cover your
> toes and fingers, but....
>
> After tentative investigation, I think I will go the
> heated seat route, both
> front and back, to supplement the std heat muff.
>
> Larry Bowen
> RV-8 wings
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electric heat |
I think 4 amps on "high". Do an archive search on seat & heat.
Here is a link to an example:
http://www.skylitesunroofs.com/p_carbotex_seat_heaters.html
Larry Bowen
Email: Larry(at)BowenAero.com
Web: http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of K.M.
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 11:12 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: electric heat
>
>
> Larry:
>
> Please explain......
> and what is the current draw for these? I am building
> a RANS S-12S and only have an 18 amp Alternator on the
> rotax 912.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --- Larry Bowen wrote:
> > Bowen"
> >
> > Have you considered heated seats instead? I know
> > that doesn't cover your
> > toes and fingers, but....
> >
> > After tentative investigation, I think I will go the
> > heated seat route, both
> > front and back, to supplement the std heat muff.
> >
> > Larry Bowen
> > RV-8 wings
>
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electric heat |
*** If you go to a motorcycle shop, you may find some really nice electric
vests. "Eclipse" is one brand. They draw about four amps, and do an
excellent job of keeping your torso warm while your head is still cool and
clear.
The Eclipse electric vest uses a "stereo power" connector. If _I_ were
building an airplane, I'd seriously consider supplying one of those
connectors near each seat.
Once upon a time, I worked in a building without heat or AC. In the
winter, I wore my Eclipse at my station, with a little 12V "CB" power supply
to keep it going.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [c-a] Virus warning |
>Dale Martin wrote:
>>
>> I was sent the "homepagevbs" virus which takes all the OutLook
>> email addresses and sends out email to the entire list. If you
>> recieved an email from me yesterday with an attachment that says
>> something like "this is cool"......
>>
>> DO NOT OPEN IT AND DELETE THE EMAIL.
>>
>> Dale Martin LEZ 777DJ Lewiston, ID
>
>Ok, I'm more than a little biased, but this sounds like just one more reason to
>boycott the totally insecure microsoft products. Not saying Netscape cannot
>have problems, but it's always Outlook, isn't it?
Not really. Just downloaded the latest McAfee virus scanning
data files and did a total scan of my machines. Found two new
virus programs on my every-day machine, one on my order taking
machine and Dee is presently scanning her machine upstairs.
She uses outlook but I use Eudora . . . ANY e-mail program will
download and store potentially hazardous programs.
I don't open attachments from ANYONE I don't know and then
only if I'm expecting something from them. If it's anything
but a .jpg or .gif file it will probably get zapped away anyhow.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com> |
| Subject: | Keepwarm system revisited |
Bob,
What about an active circuit out in the wing using a 555 timer and a
MOSFET switcher? A low frequency switcher with a low duty cycle (and
"controlled" voltage rise times to eliminate RFI) would be easy to design
and implement.
Fred Stucklen
N925RV (1775 hrs/7.8 Yrs)
E. Windsor, CT 06088
WK Email: stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com
Hm/Travel Email: wstucklen1(at)juno.com
____
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Keepwarm system revisited . . .
>
>I guess I've got to ask for clarification here. I assume the idea
is to
>keep the bulb warm to reduce the inrush current on turn-on. A 50
watt
>landing light probably has a cold resistance of a lot less than 1
ohm and a
>"warm" resistance of maybe 1 ohm. 2 volts applied gives 2 amps of
current -
>per bulb. That sounds excessive, but to put negligible current
into the
>bulb would provide negligible heating. What's the scoop?
Just measured a 55W halogen lamp at .25 ohms room temp.
1.0 volts applied produces a dull read glow at 0.8 amps
for a "warm" resistance of 1.25 ohms . . . about a 5x
increase. DC to DC converters will be pretty readily
available in the 1.8 volt range . . . drop that through
the isolation diode will give you about 1.1 to 1.2 volts
applied to lamp. A 2A power supply could probably
handle a landing and taxi light. Adding NAV lights
would probably boost it to something on the order of
3A . . . the power supply should be capable of running
constant current so that it doesn't "stall" when hit
with the cold filaments.
While "keep warm" is technically attractive, it's
still pretty expensive practically. The major
thrust of the keep warm system was driven by the
high cost of "aircraft" lamps and relatively low
life. Automotive halogens should last longer and
of course the bulbs are much cheaper. If you have
both landing and taxi lamps, (or hook up high and
low beam filaments of a dual lamp) then you have
a standby illuminator for landing.
In retrospect, I think I'd try to maximize use of
low cost automotive parts and have a backup as opposed
to spending a lot of dollars (and increasing system
complexity) with a keepwarm system to increase the
life of a bulb that is eventually going to burn out
anyhow.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>I'll play devil's advocate here. I found Bob's book to be helpful, but
>certainly not to the degree that I had hoped. It goes into too much
>detail in the wrong areas (detailed theory of battery construction,
>magnetic fields, etc.) that just don't help too much in the grand scheme
>of things. These things don't help too much when it comes down to "how
>do I wire my plane". I've got *some* electronics background (amateur
>radio, etc), and would have much rather seen more "applicable"
>information in a Tony Bingelis fashion. Such as the order to do things:
>run a grounding strap from your engine to your firewall ground block (2
>or 4 AWG), run a cable from this firewall ground block to your battery
>NEG post (4 AWG), don't forget to do XXX, ...
>
>The diagrams are the greatest resource and worth the price of admission.
> This newsgroup will probably make it worthwhile too! I also attended
>one of Bob's seminars, which was worthwhile.
All excellent points . . . -AND- the reason why this is a living
document. Revision 10 of the 'Connection is going to do extensive
upgrading of some old chapters. The new material is based
on feedback from folks we've been working with for the last 12
years.
This is "my" book only because I write down the things I know
about at the time and print it. It's "your" book because you
can participate in its evolution.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
This is just a heads-up:
There is a recent thread about heating the seats versus the
cockpit air. Good idea to limit the volume to be heated............BUT:
I seem toi remember when the astronauts couches (the origin of
this material) came into news, that the magic of form-fitted qualities came
slowly from the temperature of the incumbent, that is, heat from the bod
made a dent which fitted each person in turn.
Tony Krzyzewski, a recent contributor might better speak to
this, but I would ensure that I would say I planned to heat this expensive
foam before I bought it in case it triggers a no-no.
Cheers, Ferg, Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keepwarm circuit for lamps....... |
Bob,
Recall that the WigWag Solid State Controller has a bulb warmer function
which warms the filament.
The WigWag Solid State Controller also detects a burned out bulb. When
this is detected, it outsources a current that can drive an LED. This is
done for each light.
Of course, it also wigwags the leading edge lights. Price $90 plus $6 for
shipping. Delivery 4 to 6 week.
Send check to
Bob Haan
14270 SW Koven Ct
Tigard, OR 97224
Adobe Acrobat documentation at
http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/
A very long time customer,
Bob
> by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> >
> >Has anyone found an good source for 12vdc to 2vdc
> >step-down transformers for Bob's keepwarm circuits?
>
> There are some out there but still pretty pricey . .
> about $60 for a 3.3v 2A device that runs from 9-18
> volts input. You can buy a LOT of bulbs for $60.
> Additional load on the system would be small, perhaps
> 0.2A or so. I think I'd wait on this. The converters
> are becoming more common and volumes are going up.
> I expect prices to come down and you can add this
> feature very easily at some later time.
>
Bob Haan
http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/
bhaan(at)easystreet.com
Portland, OR
RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator speeds |
>I've an alternator conversion from Air Tech to install on my TriPacer. It's
>a Hitachi AM-053R, 45A alternator with a solid state "V1200" regulator
>incorperating OV protection and low voltage light circuits. Do you know
>anything about Air-Tec and its products?
>
>I'm concerned about the speed it will be operating with it's 2 5/8" Dia.
>pulley. Should I be? The kit (with the small pulley) is not STC'd but has
>been field approved for several aircraft.
>
>Have you a source for a larger pulley? Aircraft Spruce has a beauty but the
>boss is too thick for this alternator.
Why do you want to slow it down? The B&C L-40/L-60 series alternators
run very happily on the front of a Lycoming with a very small pulley.
The smaller pulley gets you more output at idle and taxi speeds and
more cooling air in cruising flight. Depending on Air-Tec's attention
to detail, they should either balance the rotor very well or
KNOW that it doesn't need to be balanced any further.
The field service life of a B&C (Nipon-Dienso conversion) is
exemplary . . . I'd have the rotor checked for balance and
leave the pulley alone. The L-40 has been installed on numerous
Piper products using a field approval; my impression is that
the owners are most pleased with their choice.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lonnie Wood" <lonnwood(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stabilant 22 |
Does anybody know where I can order Stabilant 22? This is
a Canadian company. On their web-site they show Napa as
a dealer, but my local Napa parts store never heard of it. I think
only the Canadian Napa stores carry it. I have tried the big
electronic supply houses but they don't carry it.
Lonnie Wood
________________________________________________________________________________
I have to say something about this as I have both Bob's book and Tony's
trilogy. From a theoretical perspective Bob's book is far superior to Tony
but, as someone else has already pointed out, is a little more specific
about how to. However, I attended one of Bob's seminars last year and the
opportunity to actually do things under his tutelage and being able to
discuss things that he talks about in his book made his book come alive.
That is what made the difference for me. Now the book is a great reference
and I would not trade for it. As they say, give a man a fish and you've fed
him once, teach him to fish and you've fed him a life time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerome Kaidor" <jerryk(at)best.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's Bookh
>
> >
> > I'm new on this list, and have been intimidated by electronic
> > issues. The primary reason is the schematics, which are a foreign
> > language to me. Question: Does Bob's book take a rank newbie like me
> > by the hand, thru this new language to a point where I could actually
> > read and understand a schematic drawing? If not, can you recommend a
> > supplemental reading source that would get me started?
>
> *** It wouldn't hurt to read the first few chapters of the "Radio
Amateur's
> Handbook". It's published by the ARRL ( sort of like AOPA, only for radio
> hams ). The book talks about electronics from a pretty basic level. It's
> put out every year - doesn't matter which year you get. Should be at your
> local library. There's ten or eleven of'em on Ebay right now.
>
> On a somewhat more advanced level - but still starting "from the
> beginning" is "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. This book
> started out as a class for scientists in other disciplines who wanted to
"do
> electronics". I can't recommend it too highly. The appendix on
> "how not to draw schematics" alone is worth the price of admission.
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Heated pitot current draw |
In an effort to gather information regarding the current draw for my
5814 heated pitot/static tube, I put together a setup on my bench and
gathered some figures.
If anyone is interested in the current draw trend form this particular
pitot/static tube you might find the graph interesting. I'll be running
this test later on and documenting the heat rise across the pitot tube
vs. time.
My basic electronics is a little weak and I was somewhat surprised at
the results. The peak draw as I started the test turned out to be
almost 19 amps and after stabilizing for 10 minutes the current draw was
approximately 9 amps. The temperature across he pitot (as measured by a
digital pyrometer) was about 425 degrees and slowly rising. Does anyone
have any information on what the temperature of a pitot tube is suppose
to be? I suppose the airflow across the tube once in the air will tend
to keep things quite a bit cooler but I don't think ice will stand a
chance against this setup.
I don't know why, but I was expecting the current draw to be consistent
whether the pitot tube was hot or cold.
Anyway, check it out here and follow the links.
http://bmnellis.com
Mike Nellis
Plainfield, IL
RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps
Stinson 108-2 N9666K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Duckett <perfeng(at)3rivers.net> |
Lonnie,
I think I've seen it in the NAPA stores here in Montana. If it is
normally stocked by NAPA then they have a part number assigned. I'll
Check in the morning and post the part number if it is availible then
all your local store has to do is order it through their D.C.
Jim D.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Heated pitot current draw |
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike"
>>I don't know why, but I was expecting the current draw to be
consistent
>>whether the pitot tube was hot or cold.
Mike;
The results you obtained are exactly consistant with what would be
expected. The electrical resistance of almost all materials rises with
an increase in temperature and therefore the current vs. time graph will
be as you have experimentally proven. This resistance characteristic is
why there is a large inrush current when you turn on a cold light bulb
but the current quickly stabilizes at a much lower value as the
fillament temperature rapidly rises.
Bob McC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso Bovan" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Stabilant 22 - Contact Enhancer |
Stabilant 22 is (or was) sold in diluted form as "Tweek" in some audio
repair stores. It may still be available as old stock. Some people
complained that Stabilant sold as "Tweek" was diluted too much with
isopropanol and evaporated from the contact over time.
Stabilant 22 is an interesting viscous liquid that becomes conductive only
in an electric field, thus enhancing contact effectiveness. Correctly
applied it should last on a contact surface for many years. Stabilant 22
would be better known if it weren't for the marketing/sales incompetence of
its Canadian manufacturer. (A common problem among Canadian companies).
Check the "orders" webpage of www.stabilant.com to see an example of how to
alienate potential customers.
Stabilant 22 is available from the manufacturer at retail list prices but
the manufacturer makes ordering difficult - they won't accept credit cards !
I'm not a dealer but I have a few 5ml tubes of Stabilant 22A (a moderately
diluted form) available for builders who can't find it at retail. E-mail me
at vaso(at)bovan.com for details if interested.
-Vaso
----------------------------------------------
Does anybody know where I can order Stabilant 22? This is
a Canadian company. On their web-site they show Napa as
a dealer, but my local Napa parts store never heard of it.
I think only the Canadian Napa stores carry it. I have
tried the big electronic supply houses but they don't
carry it.
Lonnie Wood
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keepwarm system revisited |
>
>
>Bob,
>
> What about an active circuit out in the wing using a 555 timer and a
>MOSFET switcher? A low frequency switcher with a low duty cycle (and
>"controlled" voltage rise times to eliminate RFI) would be easy to design
>and implement.
>
>Fred,
Fred, we use a 555 and two MOSFETs in the WigWag Solid State Controller to
warm the leading edge lights. Our duty cycle is 1/200.
FYI, we use a second 555 and the same two MOSFETs for wigwaging
(alternately flashing) he leading edge lights. We have set the wigwag
flash rate so that:-
1. The bulbs come up to full brightness on each flash. Full brightness
means that you will be seen from a greater distance. The police car behind
you with a fast flash rate does not need to be seen from miles away.
2. Both lights are not visible at the same time. Since there is not a
significant difference in the time required to warm up the filament to full
brightness versus the time to cool off the filament so that it is dark,
when one light is at full bright the other light is off. This alternating
WigWag pattern will make the light appear to jump from on wing tip to the
other. We have been conditioned to notice movement. This flash at one wing
tip followed by the flash at the other wing tip creates apparent
motion. This apparent motion is most important when approaching another
plane head on where without the wigwag pattern there is no apparent motion.
If the flash rate is to fast, instead of an apparent jump from on wing tip
to the other, your eye will see two lights with alternating brightness.
Another wigwaging benefit is that since the lights are on only half the
time, the load on the alternator etc. is half the load when the leading
edge lights are simply switched on in the day time for improved
visibility. This can be significant since the leading edge lights are
often the largest load in the plane.
A Data Sheet and an Installation Guide plus Application Notes in a 135K
Adobe Acrobate file are available at http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ for
viewing, downloading or printing.
Fred, I will send you this file as an attachment . Others interested in
receiving more information on the WigWag Solid State Controller can email a
request and I will reply with this Adobe file attached.
Bob
http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/
bhaan(at)easystreet.com
Portland, OR
RV6A 24461 Wind Screen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Alt. b-lead fuseable link |
I have the B&C specialties 80 amp inline fuse for the alternator big wire, is
there any problem with attaching one end of this directly to the alternator
post, instead of making a short section of wire between it and the alt?
Kevin in WA
RV 9A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mitchf(at)netscape.com (Mitchell Faatz) |
| Subject: | Source for toggle switch and covers? |
I'm working on my instrument sub-panel, and am looking for a good source
for toggle switches with plastic covers on the handle (aren't they
called 'bats' for some reason?). I definitely want white, but finding
other colors like yellow and orange would be nice too. Standard size or
mini, not sub-mini size.
Thanks - Mitch
RV6A Finish Kit San Mateo, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alt. b-lead fuseable link |
>
>I have the B&C specialties 80 amp inline fuse for the alternator big wire, is
>there any problem with attaching one end of this directly to the alternator
>post, instead of making a short section of wire between it and the alt?
>Kevin in WA
>RV 9A
The fuse needs to go at the OTHER end of that wire. The energy
source that is a threat to that wire is the BATTERY . . . not
the alternator. Those fuses are not terribly structural . . .
it would be best to have wires attached to both ends even if
the end away from the alternator is a short one.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source for toggle switch and covers? |
From: mitchf(at)netscape.com (Mitchell Faatz)
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Source for toggle switch and covers?
Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Faatz)
>
> I'm working on my instrument sub-panel, and am looking for a good source
> for toggle switches with plastic covers on the handle (aren't they called
> 'bats' for some reason?). I definitely want white, but finding other
> colors like yellow and orange would be nice too. Standard size or mini,
> not sub-mini size.
>
> Thanks - Mitch
>
> RV6A Finish Kit San Mateo, CA
>
>Mitch
Try Peerlesselectronics.com
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heated pitot current draw |
>
>In an effort to gather information regarding the current draw for my
>5814 heated pitot/static tube, I put together a setup on my bench and
>gathered some figures.
>
>My basic electronics is a little weak and I was somewhat surprised at
>the results. The peak draw as I started the test turned out to be
>almost 19 amps and after stabilizing for 10 minutes the current draw was
>approximately 9 amps. The temperature across he pitot (as measured by a
>digital pyrometer) was about 425 degrees and slowly rising. Does anyone
>have any information on what the temperature of a pitot tube is suppose
>to be? I suppose the airflow across the tube once in the air will tend
>to keep things quite a bit cooler but I don't think ice will stand a
>chance against this setup.
>
>I don't know why, but I was expecting the current draw to be consistent
>whether the pitot tube was hot or cold.
Your data is consistent with the way these things work. They
have a very strong positive temperature coefficient of resistance.
This both a boon and bane. It takes so long to get past the strong
peak in current that you're obligated to use a 15A breaker and
appropriately sized wire in spite of the fact that it draws only
8-9 amps in normal operation.
However, as you have noticed, the critter gets REALLY hot after
awhile . . . in fact, I would caution against prolonged operation
on the workbench . . . these things are stressed pretty hard
if operating without cooling air of a 100+ MPH slipstream.
The up side is that you can design a controller that uses the
device's internal resistance to sense whether or not there
is ice to be melted. I designed a system for duty-cycle
switching the heater and measuring the heater's resistance
during the off cycle. It was pretty simple to set it up
so that even when operated on the ground with no cooling air,
the heater was just warm to the touch and consumed just over
20 watts. When hit with super-cooled water, the system would
sense the heater's temperature drop and the duty cycle went up
to what ever was necessary to keep the surface temperature of
the probe at about 50F minimum . . . if you were in severe
icing, the draw would go up to the tube's 100 watt rating
but in most cases, it ran much lower . . . and if not in
actual icing, it would loaf along at 40-50 watts.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Source for toggle switch and covers? |
>
> I'm working on my instrument sub-panel, and am looking for a good source
> for toggle switches with plastic covers on the handle (aren't they
> called 'bats' for some reason?). I definitely want white, but finding
> other colors like yellow and orange would be nice too. Standard size or
> mini, not sub-mini size.
>
*** Hi Mitch,
Have you tried San Mateo Electronics, on 42nd Avenue?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Gray <bruce.gray(at)snet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source for toggle switch and covers? |
The problem is that most of the major manufacturers don't stock anything. Everything
is made to order. For example, my Eaton flap switch, with a white flap bat handle,
took 10 weeks to receive. And then I had to buy 5 of the things as a mininum order.
I kept one as a spare and sold the rest to other builders.
Bruce
Glasair III
Jim Robinson wrote:
>
> Try Peerlesselectronics.com
>
> Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark A. Naig" <mark_a_naig(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Toggle switch covers |
Mitch,
I have an idea for a cheap way to get your multi-color switches.
Buy your toggle switched with just the normal metal bats. Then purchase
PlastiDip [Plastidip.com] in the color of your choice [Red, Yellow, Blue,
Black, White, or Clear]. One source of PlastiDip is RadioShack.com. They
sell the product for $7.99 USD per 14.5 Fl Oz can for dipping or $6.99 USD
per 11 Fl Oz Spray-Can.
While one can would cover more toggle switches than you will need for plane,
the rest can be used to cover and protect your tools, or even other parts of
your plane. I played with the stuff in high school shop and it worked great
on tools.
Sincerely,
Mark A. Naig
I'm working on my instrument sub-panel, and am looking for a good source for
toggle switches with plastic covers on the handle (aren't they
called 'bats' for some reason?). I definitely want white, but finding other
colors like yellow and orange would be nice too. Standard size or
mini, not sub-mini size.
Thanks - Mitch
RV6A Finish Kit San Mateo, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Heated pitot current draw |
Hi Bob..is a circuit diagram of your pitot heater controller available?..no point
in me
re-inventing the wheel..Thanks, Vern Smith vismith(at)sympatico.ca
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >In an effort to gather information regarding the current draw for my
> >5814 heated pitot/static tube, I put together a setup on my bench and
> >gathered some figures.
> >
>
>
> >My basic electronics is a little weak and I was somewhat surprised at
> >the results. The peak draw as I started the test turned out to be
> >almost 19 amps and after stabilizing for 10 minutes the current draw was
> >approximately 9 amps. The temperature across he pitot (as measured by a
> >digital pyrometer) was about 425 degrees and slowly rising. Does anyone
> >have any information on what the temperature of a pitot tube is suppose
> >to be? I suppose the airflow across the tube once in the air will tend
> >to keep things quite a bit cooler but I don't think ice will stand a
> >chance against this setup.
> >
> >I don't know why, but I was expecting the current draw to be consistent
> >whether the pitot tube was hot or cold.
>
> Your data is consistent with the way these things work. They
> have a very strong positive temperature coefficient of resistance.
> This both a boon and bane. It takes so long to get past the strong
> peak in current that you're obligated to use a 15A breaker and
> appropriately sized wire in spite of the fact that it draws only
> 8-9 amps in normal operation.
>
> However, as you have noticed, the critter gets REALLY hot after
> awhile . . . in fact, I would caution against prolonged operation
> on the workbench . . . these things are stressed pretty hard
> if operating without cooling air of a 100+ MPH slipstream.
>
> The up side is that you can design a controller that uses the
> device's internal resistance to sense whether or not there
> is ice to be melted. I designed a system for duty-cycle
> switching the heater and measuring the heater's resistance
> during the off cycle. It was pretty simple to set it up
> so that even when operated on the ground with no cooling air,
> the heater was just warm to the touch and consumed just over
> 20 watts. When hit with super-cooled water, the system would
> sense the heater's temperature drop and the duty cycle went up
> to what ever was necessary to keep the surface temperature of
> the probe at about 50F minimum . . . if you were in severe
> icing, the draw would go up to the tube's 100 watt rating
> but in most cases, it ran much lower . . . and if not in
> actual icing, it would loaf along at 40-50 watts.
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Heated pitot current draw |
> The up side is that you can design a controller that uses the
> device's internal resistance to sense whether or not there
> is ice to be melted. I designed a system for duty-cycle
> switching the heater and measuring the heater's resistance
> during the off cycle. It was pretty simple to set it up
I, too would love to see the design for this!
Gary, just now working on his wing.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kempthornes" <kempthornes(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Source for toggle switch and covers? |
> The problem is that most of the major manufacturers don't stock anything.
Everything
> is made to order. For example, my Eaton flap switch, with a white flap bat
handle,
> took 10 weeks to receive. And then I had to buy 5 of the things as a
mininum
Put some shrink tube on the bat handles. Comes in several colors.
You could also make some wild switch shapes with blobs of aerobondo.
Hal Kempthorne
RV6a N7HK (Valentine) FLYING
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Heated pitot current draw |
> Mike, thanks for the pitot amps curve.
>
> What "system" did you use to record all those points?
You're welcome,
I used my handy, dandy Radio Shack Multimeter. The meter has a PC interface
on it and comes with some software that allows you monitor and track the
readings. It saves those readings to a *.txt file that is in a table format
but will also show the reading on a graph. I used Excel to graph the table
file then converted it to *.html format.
I had to borrow my wife's laptop and lug it to the basement but otherwise
it's pretty simple.
After reading some responses I got on/offline and thinking about it a
little more, I realize that the curve may not be valid in flight. The cool
air (found when icing might occur) will probably keep the pitot tube
significantly cooler than the conditions on the bench. I can therefore
assume that the current draw will be consistently higher and the pitot tube
cooler. I have used 14 gauge wire for the pitot tube heater and I'll be
using a 20 amp fuse for circuit protection.
Bob Nuckolls mentioned a circuit design that would allow automatic control
of the pitot temperature so that might be an interesting option.
Mike Nellis
Plainfield, IL
RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps
Stinson 108-2 N9666K
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Bell" <rv4bell(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | 403mc Audio System |
Hi Bob,
Can pin 18 (music input) be use for two inputs? Proprietary Software Systems
AOA and RMI Monitor both have audio inputs.
Best regards,
Bruce Bell
Lubbock, Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Locking switches |
I would like to install locking switches for my mags and alternator.
These switches require the knob to be pulled out in order to throw the
switch. I've seen them in military and commercial planes, but I don't
know their nomenclature or a source for the switches. Can anyone help?
Charlie Brame
RV-6AQB N11CB (Reserved)
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Locking switches |
>
>I would like to install locking switches for my mags
newark.com 2TL1-5K (MicroSwitch part nubmer
but no stock)
About $45 each
> and alternator.
newark.com 23F1987 2TL1-10A $46.96 each
>These switches require the knob to be pulled out in order to throw the
>switch. I've seen them in military and commercial planes, but I don't
>know their nomenclature or a source for the switches. Can anyone help?
They're very nice switches with a price to match . . . are
you sure your REALLY want these? They add very little if
anything in the way of safety . . . I'd rather see you
buy the AeroElectric el-cheapos and use the extra cash
toward a backup GPS from Walmart for $100 . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Froehlich" <carlfro(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Locking switches |
Charlie,
I got mine from Allied electronics, but I'm using the 1/4" miniature
versions (C&K 7000 series, $7 to $8 each). They have silver contacts rated
at 5 amps, but I'm not using them anywhere near this rating (DPDT, both
contacts in parallel for each Light Speed ignition, and a on-off-on for the
left and right vital bus miniature contactors, about 100ma).
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (systems install)
Vienna, VA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Charles Brame
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:49 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Locking switches
I would like to install locking switches for my mags and alternator.
These switches require the knob to be pulled out in order to throw the
switch. I've seen them in military and commercial planes, but I don't
know their nomenclature or a source for the switches. Can anyone help?
Charlie Brame
RV-6AQB N11CB (Reserved)
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Toggle switch covers |
>
>Mitch,
>
>I have an idea for a cheap way to get your multi-color switches.
>
>Buy your toggle switched with just the normal metal bats. Then purchase
>PlastiDip [Plastidip.com] in the color of your choice [Red, Yellow, Blue,
>Black, White, or Clear]. One source of PlastiDip is RadioShack.com. They
>sell the product for $7.99 USD per 14.5 Fl Oz can for dipping or $6.99 USD
>per 11 Fl Oz Spray-Can.
Here's the folks that make the stuff:
http://www.plastidip.com/plastdip.html
See list of various retail outlets at bottom of page.
Here are additional sources:
http://www.greenbrookelectronics.com/plastidip.htm
http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F005%5F005%5F006%5F000&Page=1
http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search on "plasti-dip" then click
on "plastic" then click on "plastic dip"
I have a can of red that I bought at a local Harbor Freight
store. They only stock red and black.
You can see a picture of a do-it-yerself color
coded toggle switch at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/plastidip.jpg
Several builders might go together and buy an assortment
of colors and then do enough switches for all their airplanes.
The stuff will store well . . . but even the tightest lid
will not prevent evaporation of solvents. You can thin it
back to original consistency with tolulene or xylene available
from painting supply shops and many hardware stores.
Don't let it get TOO thick in storage . . . it develops solids
that are difficult if not impossible to get back into solution.
This is why the sample coating in the above photograph is rough.
You can't expect to store it maintenance free for very long.
I'd suggest all the participants get their switches coated
while the stuff is relatively fresh so that loss of the remainder
won't torpedo your plans.
I'm still looking for vinyl booties . . . I've seen them
but yet to discovered where they are manufactured.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
>
>Hi Bob..is a circuit diagram of your pitot heater controller available?..no point
in me
>re-inventing the wheel..Thanks, Vern Smith vismith(at)sympatico.ca
Yes . . . the first one was pretty simple but it was microprocessor
based. I'll see if I can dope out a version with discrete components.
I'll announce it on the list and post it on my website.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 403mc Audio System |
>
>Hi Bob,
>Can pin 18 (music input) be use for two inputs? Proprietary Software Systems
>AOA and RMI Monitor both have audio inputs.
>Best regards,
>Bruce Bell
>Lubbock, Texas
Probably. Put a 220 ohm, 1/2 watt resistor in series with
each audio output before bringing them together at the
403MC's music input.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
>
> >
> >Hi Bob..is a circuit diagram of your pitot heater controller available?..no
point in me
> >re-inventing the wheel..Thanks, Vern Smith vismith(at)sympatico.ca
>
> Yes . . . the first one was pretty simple but it was microprocessor
> based.
*** That's how I would have done it. This kind of thing is just a piece of
cake with a little microcontroller. I guess it's just harder to "give out
a schematic" when there's a program to be burned into a part?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Locking switches |
Charles--
I think that, over time, you'll find those locking-type toggles to be
real pain in the a**. May I suggest just fabricating a simple aluminum
shield, 2 or 3 sided shield around the switches, to prevent inadvertent
bumping, if that's the reason for your concern.
>
>
> I would like to install locking switches for my mags and alternator.
> These switches require the knob to be pulled out in order to throw the
> switch. I've seen them in military and commercial planes, but I don't
> know their nomenclature or a source for the switches. Can anyone help?
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6AQB N11CB (Reserved)
> San Antonio
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
>
>> >Hi Bob..is a circuit diagram of your pitot heater controller available?..no
point in me
>> >re-inventing the wheel..Thanks, Vern Smith vismith(at)sympatico.ca
>>
>> Yes . . . the first one was pretty simple but it was microprocessor
>> based.
>*** That's how I would have done it. This kind of thing is just a piece of
>cake with a little microcontroller. I guess it's just harder to "give out
>a schematic" when there's a program to be burned into a part?
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
You got it. The first whack at this used a Rockwell 6502/1 (That
ought to tell you how many gray hairs I have) and a National
8-bit, parallel-out A/D converter. There are some really
neat, $3 a whack jellybean controllers coming out now . . .
some with 10 and 12-bit A/D converters built in. If I were
going to do the project again, I'd opt for a year 2001 u-product.
I think I can make this work well with jellybean discrete
parts too. Just need to noodle on it awhile.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fran Malczynski" <ebafm(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spike Catcher Diodes |
Bob, sent this to you for upgrade/correction a couple of weeks ago. Have you
seen it? Looking to close up my top fwd skin and would Like to get this OVM
back in before I do.
Thanks
Fran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:21
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Spike Catcher Diodes
>
> >
> >Bob, I'm using the starter solenoid from Van's which I guess is an
> >automotive intermittant duty solenoid. The spike catcher is connected
from
> >terminal 1 ("switch" s) terminal to the case ground. The red band of the
> >diode is connected to terminal 1.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Fran Malczynski
> >RV6 - N594EF
> >Olcott, NY
>
> Okay, that's a good thing. Send me your OVM and I'll
> upgrade it for you.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary" <gpoulos(at)mind.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stabilant 22 - Contact Enhancer |
I was told that CorrosionX has similar properties. I have used it with some
success on my radio connectors.
_____________
Gary
Vaso said...
Stabilant 22 is an interesting viscous liquid that becomes conductive only
in an electric field, thus enhancing contact effectiveness. Correctly
applied it should last on a contact surface for many years. -Vaso
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike & Lee Anne (mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca)" <mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca> |
Vaso....check out electrosonic...one of their dealers and a Canadian
equivalent to something like digikey. Despite being a Canadian company,
I think you'll find their e-commerce capabilities "worldly" enough to
meet your needs, eh? ;-).
Mike
Stabilant 22 is an interesting viscous liquid that becomes conductive
only
in an electric field, thus enhancing contact effectiveness. Correctly
applied it should last on a contact surface for many years. Stabilant 22
would be better known if it weren't for the marketing/sales incompetence
of
its Canadian manufacturer. (A common problem among Canadian companies).
Check the "orders" webpage of www.stabilant.com to see an example of how
to
alienate potential customers.
Stabilant 22 is available from the manufacturer at retail list prices
but
the manufacturer makes ordering difficult - they won't accept credit
cards !
I'm not a dealer but I have a few 5ml tubes of Stabilant 22A (a
moderately
diluted form) available for builders who can't find it at retail. E-mail
me
at vaso(at)bovan.com for details if interested.
-Vaso
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stabilant 22 - Contact Enhancer |
ACF-50, Boeshield, and Corrosion-X are all moisture displacing products
composed primarily of mineral oil and stoddard solvent (like safety
kleen). The solvent dilutes the oil to lower its viscosity making it
better able to flow into small spaces (lapped seams and around rivets) and
this displaces the moisture. The solvent then evaporates and the oil is
left behind.
I don't think there is any component of these products which is a "viscous
liquid that becomes conductive only in an electric field, thus enhancing
contact effectiveness". It just displaces the moisture an leaves behind an
oil. Which can help avionics or possibly any device contaminated with
moisture.
>I was told that CorrosionX has similar properties. I have used it with some
>success on my radio connectors.
>Stabilant 22 is an interesting viscous liquid that becomes conductive only
>in an electric field, thus enhancing contact effectiveness. Correctly
>applied it should last on a contact surface for many years. -Vaso
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl(at)centurytel.net> |
Anyone know where I can find N.A.T. Intervox intercoms on the net or
does anyone have a wiring diagram for their ICS?
Wes K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl(at)centurytel.net> |
| Subject: | Shadin Fuel Flow |
Was someone on this site looking for a used Shadin indicator?
Wes K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Web site info |
The NAT website is http://www.northernairborne.com/ They are very helpful.
Ed Perry
eperry(at)san.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl(at)centurytel.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 8:03 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Web site info
>
> Anyone know where I can find N.A.T. Intervox intercoms on the net or
> does anyone have a wiring diagram for their ICS?
>
> Wes K
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Contact "Enhancers" |
>
>ACF-50, Boeshield, and Corrosion-X are all moisture displacing products
>composed primarily of mineral oil and stoddard solvent (like safety
>kleen). The solvent dilutes the oil to lower its viscosity making it
>better able to flow into small spaces (lapped seams and around rivets) and
>this displaces the moisture. The solvent then evaporates and the oil is
>left behind.
>
>I don't think there is any component of these products which is a "viscous
>liquid that becomes conductive only in an electric field, thus enhancing
>contact effectiveness". It just displaces the moisture an leaves behind an
>oil. Which can help avionics or possibly any device contaminated with
>moisture.
>
>>I was told that CorrosionX has similar properties. I have used it with some
>>success on my radio connectors.
>
>>Stabilant 22 is an interesting viscous liquid that becomes conductive only
>>in an electric field, thus enhancing contact effectiveness. Correctly
>>applied it should last on a contact surface for many years. -Vaso
>
>
>Bob Steward
>Birmingham, AL
I've heard of this stuff (and similar products) for years. I have
no personal experience with them (mostly because the perceived need
for them has been VERY low if none-existent). Here are some choice
links on hte web for Stabilant . . .
http://www.syence.co.uk/stabilan.htm
http://www.stabilant.com/appnt39h.htm
I retrieved a copy of the patent on the product from:
http://www.patentlawlinks.com/patsearc.htm
and did a search on 4,696,832. You can also download a
copy from:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/4696832.pdf
In the patent text we read:
"In any electrical contact, the actual co-operating contacting surfaces are not
perfectly smooth or continuously planar. Indeed, such contact surfaces, if magnified
sufficiently, may have the general appearance of a lunar landscape or
even that of a mountain range. In other words, the contact surfaces, themselves,
may be very rough, having a number of irregular peaks and a number of irregular
pits or valleys. Except as discussed hereafter with particular reference
to the present invention, the actual electrical transmission--i.e., the transmission
of electrical current from one contact surface to the other--therefore
ordinarily occurs only at those places where there is real physical contact between
the material of the one co-operating contact surface and the material of
the other co-operating contact surface."
These words generally describe the the nature of most surfaces . . .
The earth is smoother than a billiard ball. If you increase the
size of a billiard ball to a diameter equal to the earth, pits
an valleys in the ball's surface will exceed the depth and
heights of the earth's surface imperfections.
I've been doing work on some relay sticking problems on some
RAC aircraft and having peered through a microscope at what
appears to be brightly polished, gold plated surfaces, I can
easily relate to the notion that when it comes to herding
electrons between two conductors, "TANSTAASS" (their ain't
no such thing as a smooth surface).
Other noteworthy items from the patent are the size of the
molecules for the active ingredients . . . two materials
are described having a molecular weight "range of 1000-3000"
and "1400-2800". These are big molecules. Given that
they have a range (as opposed to fix length) suggests that
the term "poly" lends credence in this amateur chemist's
mind that they are relatively active and willing to form up in
various sizes under an external influence. One thing
is sure, those HUGE molecules don't evaporate . . . the
patent speaks to wetting abilities of the material so I
can believe that once in place, the stuff stays put.
In 40+ years of putting airplanes together to meet
the wishes of government's fondest dreams I've never
heard of the need to enhance the performance of any
precious metal or gas-tight contact by externally
applied concoctions (except for our brief romance
with aluminum wire). It's true that relatively rough
surfaces never have intimate contact at the molecular
level. However, when contact area is small, the PRESSURE
on these areas is HUGE in spite of small forces. As
long as the contacts don't become contaminated with
external materials (dirt) or corrosion (gold doesn't
corrode - nor do metals forced into gas-tight union),
then contact integrity is assured.
The patent cites tests to measure rise time and harmonic
distortion - qualities totally internal to the
products you're bolting to your panel. Connectors
WITHIN general aviation's black boxes seldom carry signals
wherein rise time and harmonic distortion are items
of great concern. By the time wiring reaches the outside
world where your pins are crimped on, the ability
to enhance performance or longevity at the user-
accessible level is tiny if not non-existent.
Irrespective of how this material really functions,
my strongest impressions are (1) that the stuff
probably does no harm and (2) given the time and
attention we SHOULD pay to the physics of making
and keeping good electrical contacts - adding such
a product to your toolbox should add little or
no value to the end results. History has demonstrated
that we KNOW how to make joints in our airplanes that
last a very long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Contact "Enhancers" |
| From: | "Steve Williams" <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
02:01:46 PM
Bob Nuckolls writes eloquently about how good contacts do a great job for a
long time without external chemical assistance.
Which makes me wonder: I've seen radios, in particular, become unreliable
seemingly because the connectors at the back of the rack degrade over time.
Cleaning the contacts seems to help. Is it reasonable to conclude that the
connectors typically used at the back of older radio racks just aren't up
to keeping corrosion and dirt away? (I have the impression that modern pin
and socket connectors, like the DB25, are much better.)
Another recent example of a device which failed after 25 years in service
is the panel light rheostat from a friend's Grumman Tiger, which now works
perfectly after he spent some time carefully cleaning it with various
chemicals. No opportunity there to make a gas-tight joint between the wire
coil and the wiper brush. Would an annual dose of ACF-50 have kept that
device working?
And several spade lugs in that same airplane have loosened their grip over
the years. One unreliable circuit was repaired by squeezing the spade lug
with pliers, restoring a tighter joint. (Yes, replacing the spade lug
would have been a better approach.) But I've seen ACF-50 improve this
situation (or perhaps the improvement was psychosomatic). Is it effective
in this situation, if only as a palliative?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Contact "Enhancers" |
>
>
> Which makes me wonder: I've seen radios, in particular, become unreliable
> seemingly because the connectors at the back of the rack degrade over time.
> Cleaning the contacts seems to help. Is it reasonable to conclude that the
> connectors typically used at the back of older radio racks just aren't up
> to keeping corrosion and dirt away? (I have the impression that modern pin
> and socket connectors, like the DB25, are much better.)
>
*** Once upon a time, I worked as a line technician in a telephone equipment
factory. We dealt with a _lot_ of connectors and connections, and used them
heavily. I remember two things
* Augat machine sockets *never* went intermittant. They worked perfectly
until they broke.
* The best connection, in general, was any connector with a round pin in
a round hole. Which the Augats were. They were just the "best of the
best"
* Any socket system with flat contacts was inferior. We kept contact
cleaner sprays on hand to spray them into submission. Never needed any
sprays for those Augats...
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James K. Glindemann" <jglind(at)netspace.net.au> |
I am wiring a rebuild project (Australian Victa Airtourer) a friend of mine
purchased part completed. It has a Sportflight (looks just like a westach to
me) fuel guage with a capacitive probe fitted. The wiring for the probe
looks pretty obvious due to the colouring of the wires but the pinout of the
guage is not so obvious. Can somebody point me in the right direction?
regards
James K Glindemann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 05/27/01 |
We deal in lots of electrical connectors. Our product probably has about 30
million contacts per year. Some of our automotive customers demand gold
plated pins, one even silver plated, but most just specify tin plated. We
have no data to support that one is better than the other. Some customers
have investigate "greased" connections. The idea is that corrosion (either
fretting or electrolytic) takes place at the interface and grease will keep
the oxygen away while still allowing electrical contact because the
connector pushes through the grease. Experience has shown that the light
ends of the grease will evaporate, leaving behind wax, which can work its
way between the contacts, creating intermittents. Note that all petroleum
products contain almost the whole range of molecular weights from butane to
wax - it's just the percentage of each that determines whether it is
gasoline or grease. We ship no parts with grease in them, but we do have to
put a corrosion-inhibitor on the silver pins so they don't tarnish before
final installation.
These days ALL (well, almost all) automotive connectors are environmentally
sealed and they all work well. Add vibration (engine mounted) and none work
very well. We get a lot of warranty parts back that work just fine - on a
few of these I think that if the technician just unplugged and plugged them
back in they probably would have worked. Almost none of the parts we get
back show any kind of corrosion or distress at the connector pins.
For the aerospace customers (Boeing, Airbus, Lockheed, etc) we just use
Mil-spec connectors with gold plated pins and we ship them dry.
On my race car stuff I solder the wires directly to the PC board of the
controller and then pot the whole thing, making the harness integral. Never
had a connector failure at the box - no connectors. I have seen builders of
prefab instrument panels try to make it less work for the builder by
bringing all the wiring to a central point and then put in a row of
connectors so the builder can just plug-and-play. I think I will build my
own with the idea of minimizing the number of electrical connections.
All of which reinforces what Bob has to say:
Irrespective of how this material really functions,
my strongest impressions are (1) that the stuff
probably does no harm and (2) given the time and
attention we SHOULD pay to the physics of making
and keeping good electrical contacts - adding such
a product to your toolbox should add little or
no value to the end results. History has demonstrated
that we KNOW how to make joints in our airplanes that
last a very long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Contact "Enhancers" |
>
>
>Bob Nuckolls writes eloquently about how good contacts do a great job for a
>long time without external chemical assistance.
Jerry made an astute observation about round versus flat
contacts . . . and I have to generally agree. Plug and
socket connectors for critical applications are close
cousins to the D-sub connectors with machined pins. The
male contacts are solid, the female contacts have contiguous
barrels lined with multiple spring contacts.
>Which makes me wonder: I've seen radios, in particular, become unreliable
>seemingly because the connectors at the back of the rack degrade over time.
>Cleaning the contacts seems to help. Is it reasonable to conclude that the
>connectors typically used at the back of older radio racks just aren't up
>to keeping corrosion and dirt away? (I have the impression that modern pin
>and socket connectors, like the DB25, are much better.)
I'm designing components of a new target we're building
at Raytheon. I'm using d-sub connectors on the power distribution
assembly (some feeds rated at 40 amps!) and on the electro-
explosive device controller that sequences various electrical
firecrackers to light the engines, disconnect the booster
and destruct the target. The quality of inter-mated pins
in the d-sub line are right up there with the best of them.
They're also ROUND. The avionics industry had a brief
romance with Winchester Blue Ribbon series connectors
early-on (This is like the connector often called a "Centronics"
connector on the back of most printers). This is indeed
a "flat" contact connector that depends on one-side spring
tension for integrity. I'll take the round pin connectors
any day.
>Another recent example of a device which failed after 25 years in service
>is the panel light rheostat from a friend's Grumman Tiger, which now works
>perfectly after he spent some time carefully cleaning it with various
>chemicals. No opportunity there to make a gas-tight joint between the wire
>coil and the wiper brush. Would an annual dose of ACF-50 have kept that
>device working?
If any kind of success with cleaning suggests a combination
of dirt and/or corrosion. Almost anything that aids in
washing/de-scaling the surfaces would be beneficial.
This case is a tad off point with respect to connectors
as the junction in question is hung out in the air
and exposed to a lot of contamination . . . and not
especially DESIGNED for long, maintenance free service.
It may well be too that if he cycled his panel lighting
from dim to bright and back to dim at every preflight,
the surfaces would have remained electron-friendly with
no further attention.
>And several spade lugs in that same airplane have loosened their grip over
>the years. One unreliable circuit was repaired by squeezing the spade lug
>with pliers, restoring a tighter joint. (Yes, replacing the spade lug
>would have been a better approach.) But I've seen ACF-50 improve this
>situation (or perhaps the improvement was psychosomatic). Is it effective
>in this situation, if only as a palliative?
If they've loosened, they may have been crafted from
an inferior alloy. If the lug carries relatively low
current (say less than 2A) a simple tightening and
reinstallation is probably going to last. If it's
a high current path like landing light, pitot heat
or incandescent strobe circuit, I'd replace the
terminal.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
>
> >*** That's how I would have done it. This kind of thing is just a piece of
> >cake with a little microcontroller. I guess it's just harder to "give out
> >a schematic" when there's a program to be burned into a part?
> >
> > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
> You got it. The first whack at this used a Rockwell 6502/1 (That
> ought to tell you how many gray hairs I have)
*** Right up there with you on the gray hairs, Bob. My first foray into
microprocessors was the "RCA 1802". Didn't have an assembler, memorized
all the opcodes on a set of flash cards - sped up coding considerably.
Then I got to work on a BIG machine - a Digital PDP-8 :). Assembly
language and all.
Hey, if you do it with a PIC microcontroller, will you get to log
PIC time? :)
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Qualley <dqualley(at)home.com> |
What size wires should I use to connect my strobe lights up to the power supply?
At which
end should the shielding in the wire be grounded to the airframe?
I have a single Whelen power supply with 4 outputs. I'll be using 3 of them.
It will be about a 25' run, one way, to each wing tip from the power supply, and
about 15'
one way to the tail.
The A/C is a Murphy Super Rebel.. ie. All metal airframe..
Thanks,
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matthew Gelber <mgelber(at)pacbell.net> |
Dave-
When I bought my install kit from Vans it came with a special high voltage
wire... maybe not that special, but it's very convenient. Three conductors,
all surrounded by a shield, and then jacketed again. There's a ground in
there, too... I'm, sure you can get it other places, if get it from him,
Vans nicked me $44.00 for 30' of the wire, plus some connectors.
LN HD-60-1 INSTALLATION PKG $44.00
You can order it from them, or elsewhere if its easier.
Dave-
When I bought my install kit from Vans it came with a special high voltage
wire... maybe not that special, but it's very convenient. Three 18 AWG
conductors, all surrounded by a shield, and then jacketed again. There's a
ground in there, too... It's also pictured in the ACS catalog but I didn't
see it listed as an individual item like Vans has. I'm sure you can get it
other places, but Vans nicked me got $44.00 for 30' of the wire, plus some
connectors.
LN HD-60-1 INSTALLATION PKG $44.00
Matthew
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe wires |
>
>Dave-
>
>When I bought my install kit from Vans it came with a special high voltage
>wire... maybe not that special, but it's very convenient. Three conductors,
>all surrounded by a shield, and then jacketed again. There's a ground in
>there, too... I'm, sure you can get it other places, if get it from him,
>Vans nicked me $44.00 for 30' of the wire, plus some connectors.
>
>LN HD-60-1 INSTALLATION PKG $44.00
>
>You can order it from them, or elsewhere if its easier.
The wire is Belden 971803 wire which you can view in the lower
left corner of this page from Allied's catalog.
http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.asp?FN=321.pdf
As you can see, a 100' spool of this sells for $53 and
change or about 0.53/foot. Van's probably bought 1000'
spools for about 0.23/foot
I think the connectors are:
http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/docs/pdf/6/26/195626.pdf
These can probably be had in quantities of 5 or 10
housings to a bag and bags of 100 mating pins.
Haven't bought these for years but I'd judge they
cost about $1 ea for housings and .20 ea for pins
in small quantities.
If your time to track this stuff down and order it
is worth anything, I suspect the pricing from Van's
is fair and attractive.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
>
>*** Right up there with you on the gray hairs, Bob. My first foray into
>microprocessors was the "RCA 1802". Didn't have an assembler, memorized
>all the opcodes on a set of flash cards - sped up coding considerably.
I had it easy. Cut my assembler teeth on a Rockwell AIM-65
with full ascii keyboard, 20 character display and printer
with a really nice editor and two-pass assembler. I'd been
putting off starting to learn microcontrollers because of
all the sweat I observed on the part of my contemporaries.
Stumbled into the AIM-65 and was writing code I could sell
in two weeks. It would never have happened so soon on any
other low cost development system. Got to speak to it in
plain language mnemonics from the get-go.
> Then I got to work on a BIG machine - a Digital PDP-8 :). Assembly
>language and all.
Hmmm . . . I'd forgotten how to speak in octal after
the byte came along . . . then I began to work on
setting permissions in Unix for my website server . . .
it all came back!
>Hey, if you do it with a PIC microcontroller, will you get to log
>PIC time? :)
Yeah, but only if the PIC parts are DO-160 qualified and
the code is blessed with DO-178!
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Unreliable Connectors & Stabilant |
>All of which reinforces what Bob has to say:
Irrespective of how this material really functions,
my strongest impressions are (1) that the stuff [Stabilant]
probably does no harm and (2) given the time and
attention we SHOULD pay to the physics of making
and keeping good electrical contacts - adding such
a product to your toolbox should add little or
no value to the end results. History has demonstrated
that we KNOW how to make joints in our airplanes that
last a very long time.
Bob . . .<
I make my living selecting and qualifying components for clients in the
electronics industry. Connectors and related components such as relays are
by far the least reliable electronic/electromechanical parts. My view of
Stabilant is that Bob and others are quite correct to say that we know how
to make reliable connections. However, in the real world, conditions are not
ideal and sometimes connector design and implementation is quite shoddy.
I've walked around the last two Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun shows examining
"non-certificated" electronic gadgets meant for experimental aircraft. Some
of these assemblies have totally inadequate connectors - for example
tin-to-gold mating surfaces, or - more commonly - "gold flash"-plated
contacts whose porous gold is there only for cosmetic appeal. Or, they have
cheap connectors with unreliable stamped-and-formed terminals. (There are
good stamped-and-formed terminals but they are invariably post-plated - ie
the gold plating is applied after the stamping). Even among D-Sub
connectors, there are good connectors from reputable manufacturers (AMP,
etc) but the market is flooded with cheap and nasty D-Sub connector housings
and terminals that can't be guaranteed to be interchangeable with the mating
D-Sub connector from another manufacturer. I've seen situations where the
cheap stamped-and-formed male pin from one manufacturer caught on the lip of
the corresponding female terminal or gouged and removed the gold plating
along the length of the mating terminal. The resulting corrosion problem
doesn't always show until a year or two of field service.
There are other connector problems that are not due to shoddy manufacture,
but are inherent in the compromises necessary in modern connector design. As
connector pin densities go up, connector manufacturers are often forced to
reduce insertion and "normal" contact per-pin forces to reasonable levels.
Many connectors today - for instance card-edge connectors and 100+pin
on-board PGA ICs - have low-insertion force and low normal force terminals.
(The connector manufacturers try to compensate with fancy terminal designs
such as "bifurcated" terminals with two contacts of different length and
different mechanical resonant frequencies). Low force connectors are
susceptible to intermittent contact, especially in the high vibration
environment of kitbuilt aircraft. The race is on between better-designed
connectors which tend to increase reliability, and higher pin densities and
lower currents and lower voltages which tend to decrease reliability. It
used to be that 50u" of gold plating was required (by Bellcore) for all
connectors used in low voltage telecommunications applications. Recently,
this has been lowered to 30" but only if time-consuming and expensive
testing proves the adequacy of 30u" gold (or gold-palladium). I'm sure
Garmin, and King, and other reputable and established manufacturers have the
resources to ensure connector reliability. Mom and Pop operations making
assemblies solely for the homebuilt market manifestly do not.
The point is that the average aircraft kitbuilder is at the mercy of gadget
assembly manufacturers and the connectors they select. Yes, a well-designed
and implemented gas-tight connection between two mating surfaces with
similar metal plating will not benefit from Stabilant 22. However, there are
plenty of situations, mostly low voltage, low current, high vibration
applications, where Stabilant 22 gives increased reliability and peace of
mind.
-Vaso Bovan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
If you would drop a note on the algorithm, I can convert it to one of the
current cheap micros such as PIC16F872, which is $2.83 from Digikey if you
get together an order for 25 at once.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com]
> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 12:41 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Automatic heated pitot controller
>
>
> III"
>
>
> >
> >> >Hi Bob..is a circuit diagram of your pitot heater
> controller available?..no point in me
> >> >re-inventing the wheel..Thanks, Vern Smith vismith(at)sympatico.ca
> >>
> >> Yes . . . the first one was pretty simple but it was
> microprocessor
> >> based.
>
>
> >*** That's how I would have done it. This kind of thing is
> just a piece of
> >cake with a little microcontroller. I guess it's just
> harder to "give out
> >a schematic" when there's a program to be burned into a part?
> >
> > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
> You got it. The first whack at this used a Rockwell 6502/1 (That
> ought to tell you how many gray hairs I have) and a National
> 8-bit, parallel-out A/D converter. There are some really
> neat, $3 a whack jellybean controllers coming out now . . .
> some with 10 and 12-bit A/D converters built in. If I were
> going to do the project again, I'd opt for a year 2001 u-product.
>
> I think I can make this work well with jellybean discrete
> parts too. Just need to noodle on it awhile.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
> >*** Right up there with you on the gray hairs, Bob.
> >microprocessors ??? ..... with full ascii keyboard ? ? ..... 20
character display?? ...... nice editor and two-pass assembler???......plain
language mnemonics ????..........ETC., ETC.
I'm really impressed with your modern technology. When I started, 400
warehouse people depended on me to octally patch - at the bit level the
bootsrtrap routine before manually patching the computer to read in the
program (2/3s of a tray of Hollerith cards) ...all the program could do was
sort a few records. If one card was wrinkled the warehouse may have to
schedule overtime and begin work only after I rewrote or patched modified
code. This was actually mainframe processing. Ahh!! The good old days.
No keyboard or display (console or printer) You had to navigate the
registers and read the lights - 0 is off, 1 is on. Probably as dependable
as early Windows.
Ernest Kells RV-9A - Fuselage, O-235, Planning Wood Prop
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Your OVM upgrade |
>
>Bob, sent this to you for upgrade/correction a couple of weeks ago. Have you
>seen it? Looking to close up my top fwd skin and would Like to get this OVM
>back in before I do.
>
>Thanks
Out in today's mail . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "pat_hatch" <pat_hatch(at)email.msn.com> |
| Subject: | Dual MAC trim system |
Bob,
I was wondering if you have a schematic for a dual MAC electric trim
system using their G5 stick grips. It would be a pretty straight
forward hookup until you get two in parallel. They suggest a SPDT swith
to select either the right or left stick. But my analysis indicates
that I will need 8 diodes (4 for the elevator and 4 for the aileron
servos) to keep the system from finding a ground when both sticks are
used at the same time and thus blowing a fuse. Is there a better way to
do this? Anyone else done this?
Thanks,
Pat Hatch
RV-4, N17PH @ VRB, 700 hours TT
O-320, Hartzell C/S
RV-6, Fuselage
O-360, Hartzell C/S
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Unreliable Connectors & Stabilant |
>
>>All of which reinforces what Bob has to say:
> Irrespective of how this material really functions,
> my strongest impressions are (1) that the stuff [Stabilant]
> probably does no harm and (2) given the time and
> attention we SHOULD pay to the physics of making
> and keeping good electrical contacts - adding such
> a product to your toolbox should add little or
> no value to the end results. History has demonstrated
> that we KNOW how to make joints in our airplanes that
> last a very long time.
> Bob . . .<
>
>I make my living selecting and qualifying components for clients in the
>electronics industry. Connectors and related components such as relays are
>by far the least reliable electronic/electromechanical parts. My view of
>Stabilant is that Bob and others are quite correct to say that we know how
>to make reliable connections. However, in the real world, conditions are not
>ideal and sometimes connector design and implementation is quite shoddy.
>The point is that the average aircraft kitbuilder is at the mercy of gadget
>assembly manufacturers and the connectors they select. Yes, a well-designed
>and implemented gas-tight connection between two mating surfaces with
>similar metal plating will not benefit from Stabilant 22. However, there are
>plenty of situations, mostly low voltage, low current, high vibration
>applications, where Stabilant 22 gives increased reliability and peace of
>mind.
>
>-Vaso Bovan
Vaso is dead-on correct about the variability of quality offered to
the various industries . . . and to be sure, there are many devices
offered to other venues that can be quite useful to us in
aircraft applications. The only mitigating comment I have to offer
is in response to "the average aircraft kitbuilder is at the mercy
of gadget assembly manufacturers and the connectors they select."
The folks on this list-server are not average kitbuilders or they
wouldn't be reading this now. The fact that this thread has produced
such learned and considered commentary has further elevated our
brethren's understanding of the technology. I believe everyone
on this list will now peer into the back of some contemplated
new appliance with an elevated clarity of vision and understanding
. . . it would warm the soul to hear any of them say, "I looked
at that thing but the connector on the back just didn't look
like it would stay with me for 10 years . . . I decided NOT
to put it in my airplane."
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Dual MAC trim system |
I used two of Matronics Governor units (speed control/relay deck) with G7 &
G5 grips. For the electron-challenged, like me, the wiring is a rats nest.
You're right that it's fairly straight forward until you put the 2nd grip in
parallel. I made diagrams and labeled everything and it all works... but I
hope I never have to troubleshoot it.
This seems like a good case for a many-connectored box with a PC board (or
?)inside to handle the inter-connections. From memory, I've got:
a) 8 wires from the G7; ground, 4 for trim, PTT, 2 aux - the PTT and aux
need to route back to the panel.
b) 6 wires from the G5; ground, 4 for trim, PTT
the Governors each have 2 pigtails - one goes to switches, one to servo and
bus power gets in there somewhere
c) 5 conductor wire from each servo needs to hook to Governor with two or
three of the wires continuing to the panel for the indicator.
Of course, the trim wires from the 2 grips need to pair-up going into the
Governor but then you need connectors before that if you want the control
sticks removable. Same for the Governors if you want them replaceable
without cutting and splicing. And you pretty much need to break the servo
cable since part goes to the panel and part stays by the sticks.
Here's a rough cut at the connections needed:
a) (2) connectors for each stick grip accommodating all their bells and
whistles
b) (4) connectors for the speed governors - better yet, build them in and
eliminate the connectors
c) (2) connectors for the servo wiring
d) one or more connectors to bring in power and ground and send out the trim
indicator signals and whatever other doodads are on the grips.
I'm sure if you've done a dozen of these, you can make it neat, if not
elegant. But for a first and only, it was aggravation akin to fitting my
canopy.
So how about it, anyone want to market a black box for this?
Regards,
Greg Young
RV-6 N6GY Houston (DWH) FWF - most electrons are under control
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I was wondering if you have a schematic for a dual MAC electric trim
> system using their G5 stick grips. It would be a pretty straight
> forward hookup until you get two in parallel. They suggest a
> SPDT switch
> to select either the right or left stick. But my analysis indicates
> that I will need 8 diodes (4 for the elevator and 4 for the aileron
> servos) to keep the system from finding a ground when both sticks are
> used at the same time and thus blowing a fuse. Is there a
> better way to
> do this? Anyone else done this?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
>
>
> >
> >*** Right up there with you on the gray hairs, Bob. My first foray into
> >microprocessors was the "RCA 1802". Didn't have an assembler, memorized
> >all the opcodes on a set of flash cards - sped up coding considerably.
>
> I had it easy. Cut my assembler teeth on a Rockwell AIM-65
*** Gee, I couldn't afford one of those. I think they cost about $300,
real money back in the 70's. Especially if you were a poor electronics tech.
>
> > Then I got to work on a BIG machine - a Digital PDP-8 :). Assembly
> >language and all.
>
> Hmmm . . . I'd forgotten how to speak in octal after
> the byte came along . . . then I began to work on
> setting permissions in Unix for my website server . . .
> it all came back!
>
** Snick-snack-snick-snack-DEPOSIT!
Snick-snack-snick-snack-DEPOSIT! ( Boot roms? Our boot roms were on
paper tape :-). I hand-disassembled that
paper tape loader - the one you'd enter with the toggle switches. It was
the most efficient program I ever saw: it literally ate itself, consuming
no longer needed instructions for data memory. )
Truely I knew that the world had changed, when mighty DEC was acquired by
a PC Clone manufacturer.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <pma(at)obtero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
Phew,
You guys must be about my vintage. I think I made my first industrial
controller based on a Signetics 2650. Gee I bet I'd be hard pressed to buy
on of those today !!
Cheers, Paul (Also with gray hairs)
From: Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Automatic heated pitot controller
>
> >*** That's how I would have done it. This kind of thing is just a piece
of
> >cake with a little microcontroller. I guess it's just harder to "give
out
> >a schematic" when there's a program to be burned into a part?
> >
> > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
> You got it. The first whack at this used a Rockwell 6502/1 (That
> ought to tell you how many gray hairs I have)
*** Right up there with you on the gray hairs, Bob. My first foray into
microprocessors was the "RCA 1802". Didn't have an assembler, memorized
all the opcodes on a set of flash cards - sped up coding considerably.
Then I got to work on a BIG machine - a Digital PDP-8 :). Assembly
language and all.
Hey, if you do it with a PIC microcontroller, will you get to log
PIC time? :)
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
Regards,
Paul McAllister
Builder 363 - http://pma.obtero.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | OUT OF TOWN for awhile . . . |
Dee and I are launching for parts west early in the
morning . . . for a few days I'm going to be Internet
deprived. We're scheduled to spend some time on the
beach north of San Simeon, CA counting seagulls.
I'll be meeting some of you at the Watsonville
seminar next Saturday. I'll probably not collect
any e-mail until then.
Be back in the saddle here on the list next
Monday.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
> > >*** Right up there with you on the gray hairs, Bob.
> > >microprocessors ??? ..... with full ascii keyboard ? ? ..... 20
> character display?? ...... nice editor and two-pass assembler???......plain
> language mnemonics ????..........ETC., ETC.
>
> I'm really impressed with your modern technology. When I started, 400
> warehouse people depended on me to octally patch - at the bit level the
> bootsrtrap routine before manually patching the computer to read in the
> program (2/3s of a tray of Hollerith cards) ...all the program could do was
> sort a few records. If one card was wrinkled the warehouse may have to
> schedule overtime and begin work only after I rewrote or patched modified
> code. This was actually mainframe processing. Ahh!! The good old days.
> No keyboard or display (console or printer) You had to navigate the
> registers and read the lights - 0 is off, 1 is on. Probably as dependable
> as early Windows.
> Ernest Kells RV-9A - Fuselage, O-235, Planning Wood Prop
> Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
Weren't you guys all on EGYPT - BEYOND THE PYRIMIDS on the History Channel last
night???? Geez, I don't even think they HAD electricity back then. That must have
been
before lightening!!! :-)
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic heated pitot controller |
> > sort a few records. If one card was wrinkled the warehouse may have to
> Ernest Kells RV-9A - Fuselage, O-235, Planning Wood Prop
> > Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
>
> Weren't you guys all on EGYPT - BEYOND THE PYRIMIDS on the History Channel last
> night???? Geez, I don't even think they HAD electricity back then. That must
have been
> before lightening!!! :-)
> Charlie Kuss
>
....Sigh. That's the trouble with kids today:)
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com> |
| Subject: | Alt. b-lead fuseable link |
Bob,
Do you recommend that the fuse be put in the cockpit area of an RV-6?
Fred Stucklen
N925RV (1730 hrs/7.75 Yrs)
E. Windsor, CT 06088
WK Email: stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com
Hm/Travel Email: wstucklen1(at)juno.com
____
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alt. b-lead fuseable link
>
>I have the B&C specialties 80 amp inline fuse for the alternator
big wire, is
>there any problem with attaching one end of this directly to the
alternator
>post, instead of making a short section of wire between it and the
alt?
>Kevin in WA
>RV 9A
The fuse needs to go at the OTHER end of that wire. The energy
source that is a threat to that wire is the BATTERY . . . not
the alternator. Those fuses are not terribly structural . . .
it would be best to have wires attached to both ends even if
the end away from the alternator is a short one.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com> |
| Subject: | RS232 connect UPS Avionics SL70 Xponder - Rky Mt encoder |
Hi List,
Has anyone connected the UPS Avionics SL70 Transponder to the Rocky Mt
encoder using RS232 instead of grey code? If so, would you confirm the
connections.
Thanks,
Bob
Bob Haan
http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/
bhaan(at)easystreet.com
Portland, OR
RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com> |
| Subject: | RS232 UPS Avionics SL70Xponder RkyMt encoder |
Hi List,
Has anyone connected the UPS Avionics SL70 Transponder to the Rocky Mt
encoder using RS232 instead of grey code? If so, would you confirm the
connections.
Thanks,
Bob
Bob Haan
http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/
bhaan(at)easystreet.com
Portland, OR
RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RS232 connect UPS Avionics SL70 Xponder - Rky Mt |
encoder
> Has anyone connected the UPS Avionics SL70 Transponder to the Rocky Mt
> encoder using RS232 instead of grey code? If so, would you confirm the
> connections.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Haan
> http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/
> bhaan(at)easystreet.com
> Portland, OR
> RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel
Bob,
I used the grey code instead of the RS232 output so as to save it for future
use with functions that UPSAT will be coming out with. I know, the serial
connection requires 2 wires wheras the grey code requires about 13... you
can do it!
Randy Lervold
RV-8, N558RL, 28.2 hrs.
www.rv-8.com
Home Wing VAF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Villi Seemann <villi.seemann(at)nordea.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 05/29/01 |
Subject : Connections for dual stick/dual trim servo
I am in the process of building a Lancair-360, and I had the the same
problem with all the wires going from the sticks to various control
elements. You will eventually want to remove the stic for alterations (or
repair ?), and it is pretty hard to find a 16+ way connector to fit inside a
3/4" tube.
Somewhere on the web I saw an idea with some sort of network in the A/C.
They placed a microprocessor (16pin PIC) inside the stick, feeded it with
(filtered) 12V system supply or a regulated 5V, and had serial or network
connection to all the control elements. This gives you only 3 wires up the
stick i.e. power, ground and signal.
I have implemented the setup in my sticks, but I am using the Atmel 89C2051
in a SOT package. The communication is serial NMEA-183 look alike, but for
reliability I use a CAN-bus driver for the network inteface. I am not flying
yet, but elements has been tried out in my old Auster Mk-V from 1944. It is
just as vibrating as I expect my Lancair to be.
I have 4-way trim on each stick, PTT, TXP-ident, CWS, A/P-disengage,
stopwatch start/stop, and have included a 5 digit display for clock, timer,
altitude readout, frequency preselect, all with only four wires going up the
stick.
I did not beleive this was a problem for others, so I do not intent to
produce or sell the gadget, but I can have PC-boards made up at a really
fair price.
Regards
Villi H. Seemann
Senior Engineer
Infrastructure-Network
Phone direct (+45) 3333 2101
FAX (+45) 3333 1130
Cellphone (+45) 2220 7690
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Back from the IA |
...With a small problem. As you may know, I'm going to be installing a
GNS-430 in my Sundowner.
An IFR GPS like the 430 is installed with two FAA 337 forms. The first
form ( which the FSDO has just stamped & signed ) is considered
the VFR approval. It covers the basic installation of the equipment,
and certifies that you used proper wiring techniques, the right breakers,
the right mechanical mounting, cooling, etc etc. After
the first 337 is executed, the airplane is again airworthy for VFR
purposes, but the GPS is not approved for IFR.
With the newly airworthy plane, a flight test is accomplished,
verifying that the GPS is adequate for IFR. A second 337 is filed,
certificating that the GPS passed the flight test.
The problem is with the second 337. My IA won't touch it.
His liability insurance doesn't cover flying airplanes in connection
with his airplane repair business.
So it looks like I have to find a second IA, just to flight test the
thing with me.......(sigh)!
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude gyros |
Hi guys -
We had a great discussion a month ago about the pros and cons of both
the turn coordinator, and the turn and slip indicator.
Check out the instrument panel in the May 2001 issue of "Sport
Aviation" - page 34.
You can sure see what this builder's preference is! Note: the a/c is
set up for right seat P.I.C.
Thanks again all -
Bill
RANS Courier/912uls (up on the gear)
Castro Valley, Ca. (SF bay area)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DRogers(at)maf.org (Dan Rogers) |
| Subject: | 24v battery tester |
Bob,
I am looking at page 2-9 figure 2-4 of your Aeroelectric Connection
and I am wondering what needs to be changed to make it work for 24
volt batteries.
The clock would be the same.
The relay would either have to be rated for 24v or I would have to
figure out what resistor to put in series with the coil.
Questions:
Would the same transister work?
Are the 470 ohm resisters matched to the zener or the 55w lamp? Would
they have to be different for a 24 volt battery and load? What about
if the I used a different load? Say, a 100w landing light? Are
zeners available in 20 or 21 volt versions or is there an easy way to
make they work at other volatages? What watt rating does the zener
need?
Thanks in advance.
Dan Rogers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back from the IA |
>
>...With a small problem. As you may know, I'm going to be installing a
>GNS-430 in my Sundowner.
>
> An IFR GPS like the 430 is installed with two FAA 337 forms. The first
>form ( which the FSDO has just stamped & signed ) is considered
>the VFR approval. It covers the basic installation of the equipment,
>and certifies that you used proper wiring techniques, the right breakers,
>the right mechanical mounting, cooling, etc etc. After
>the first 337 is executed, the airplane is again airworthy for VFR
>purposes, but the GPS is not approved for IFR.
>
> With the newly airworthy plane, a flight test is accomplished,
>verifying that the GPS is adequate for IFR. A second 337 is filed,
>certificating that the GPS passed the flight test.
>
> The problem is with the second 337. My IA won't touch it.
>His liability insurance doesn't cover flying airplanes in connection
>with his airplane repair business.
He doesn't have to fly the airplane. He only needs to dictate
a flight test ("go fly these approaches and flips all these
knobs and flip these switches" . . . you don't even need
to be under a hood or have a safety pilot but putting a second
person in the right seat doesn't hurt). Would he ride with you
in your airplane while you fly? His task is not to evaluate
anyone's ability to fly or even the ability of your airplane
to fly. He's interested in whether or not the equipment performs
as expected while flying. For this you go out to an airport with
low traffic with published approaches. Shoot the approaches
heads up an note that the airplane bores a reasonable hole
in the sky on it's way toward the end of the runway. While
running down the "ILS" you key up transmitters on various
frequencies at 1 Mhz intervals, run blower motors, run
flaps up and down, cycle other electrical goodies in the
airplane to see if they have any observable effect on what
the radio is telling you to do with respect to flying the
approach. He doesn't have to touch the controls of the airplane
or tell you to do anything while in flight . . . only
observe the effects of actions called out in your
flight test plan.
In fact, he doesn't even have to personally observe the test.
If he helps develop a test plan and you go fly it with
another pilot observer, he only needs to trust your
collective judgement that the unit performs as expected.
Why would anyone LIE TO HIM if it doesn't work right?
His responsibility is to help you cover all the bases
to uncover potential problems and then approve the
system when no problems are discovered. He's really making
this MUCH more complicated than it needs to be.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Who did Nuckolls say makes engraved panels? |
| From: | "Steve Williams" <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
11:12:39 AM
Bob Nuckolls mentioned an outfit that'll make custom engraved panels for
switches and whatnot. I think he said they're laminated plexiglass,
engraved from behind. Is that written up somewhere?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Gray <bruce.gray(at)snet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Who did Nuckolls say makes engraved panels? |
Try aircraft engravers at http://www.engravers.net
Bruce
Glasair III
Steve Williams wrote:
>
> Bob Nuckolls mentioned an outfit that'll make custom engraved panels for
> switches and whatnot. I think he said they're laminated plexiglass,
> engraved from behind. Is that written up somewhere?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alt. b-lead fuseable link |
>
>Bob,
>
> Do you recommend that the fuse be put in the cockpit area of an RV-6?
It can be if your starter contactor is in the cockpit too . . .
I prefer and recommend mounting the contactor on the forward
side of the firewall so that the fuse can go out there and the
always hot feeder between battery master and starter contactor
can be used to bring alternator power into the system.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Who did Nuckolls say makes engraved panels? |
> Bob Nuckolls mentioned an outfit that'll make custom engraved panels for
> switches and whatnot. I think he said they're laminated plexiglass,
> engraved from behind. Is that written up somewhere?
You can also try Panel Pilot http://members.aol.com/PANELCUT/ Steve is a
great guy.
Ross
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com> |
| Subject: | Who did Nuckolls say makes engraved panels? |
> Try aircraft engravers at http://www.engravers.net
> >
> > Bob Nuckolls mentioned an outfit that'll make custom
> engraved panels for
> > switches and whatnot. I think he said they're laminated plexiglass,
> > engraved from behind. Is that written up somewhere?
Here are a couple others (don't know if they were mentioned by Bob).
Engraved from behind:
http://www.aeroengraving.com/
Looks like engraving only from the front:
http://www.aeronorthwest.com/
Bill Cox recently wrote about his own Mooney in Plane&Pilot (April '01 at p.
37). His panel is backside-engraved wood by Hal Pflueger. (800) 256-6845
or hpflueger(at)aol.com. I saw this at Golden West last summer -- looks REALLY
nice. My personal taste leans toward the clean/industrial look of grey or
beige like those shown at aeroengraving.com, though.
Regards,
Jim Ivey
jim(at)iveylaw.com
Oakland, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com> |
I have a 3 pin connector on my Turn coordinator and I want to hook it
up. The label says A-pos, B-neg, C-open. How do I determine the
orientation of A & B? The notch is on top and the pins are shaped like
an inverted triangle, 2 pins horizontally across the top and one pin
below.
Thank you,
Ed Perry
eperry(at)san.rr.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 3 pin connector |
Ed.
Pin A is on the right, pin B is in the center at the bottom (opposite the
notch), pin C is on the left. check for continuity between pins B and C, mine
has them tied together. Use a magnifying glass and a strong light, look into
the connector the pins are labeled on the black gasket. It is very hard to
see though.
Ed. Sadler pebvjs(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 3 pin connector |
Thank You. The flashlight verified the locations. You are correct.
Ed Perry
eperry(at)san.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <Pebvjs(at)aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 3 pin connector
>
> Ed.
> Pin A is on the right, pin B is in the center at the bottom (opposite the
> notch), pin C is on the left. check for continuity between pins B and C,
mine
> has them tied together. Use a magnifying glass and a strong light, look
into
> the connector the pins are labeled on the black gasket. It is very hard to
> see though.
> Ed. Sadler pebvjs(at)aol.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com> |
| Subject: | Alt. b-lead fuseable link |
Bob,
Putting the starter contactor in the engine compartment will dictate that
a load style ammeter must be used. I do prefer the +_ auto type, but am
willing to forgo that for system simplicity.
It also results in an un-fused hot wire going through the firewall
(master contactor to starter contactor). What type of firewall feed thru do
you recommend? A hole in thin stainless with a grommet on it to protect a
heavy current carrying always hot wire (when the master contactor is closed)
doesn't meet my long term safety requirements.
If the alternator fuse is in the engine compartment, what are your
preferences concerning how it is mounted?
Fred Stucklen
N925RV (1730 hrs/7.75 Yrs)
E. Windsor, CT 06088
WK Email: stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com
Hm/Travel Email: wstucklen1(at)juno.com
____
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alt. b-lead fuseable link
IFC"
>
>Bob,
>
> Do you recommend that the fuse be put in the cockpit area of an
RV-6?
It can be if your starter contactor is in the cockpit too . . .
I prefer and recommend mounting the contactor on the forward
side of the firewall so that the fuse can go out there and the
always hot feeder between battery master and starter contactor
can be used to bring alternator power into the system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alt. b-lead fuseable link |
>
>Bob,
>
> Putting the starter contactor in the engine compartment will dictate that
>a load style ammeter must be used. I do prefer the +_ auto type, but am
>willing to forgo that for system simplicity.
Understand . . . but I think the loadmeter when combined
with a voltmeter (which you need anyhow for battery only
operations) will give you a clearer picture of system
condition.
> It also results in an un-fused hot wire going through the firewall
>(master contactor to starter contactor). What type of firewall feed thru do
>you recommend? A hole in thin stainless with a grommet on it to protect a
>heavy current carrying always hot wire (when the master contactor is closed)
>doesn't meet my long term safety requirements.
Been done for decades on hundreds of thousands of airplanes.
Running a main feeder through a grommet that's properly shielded
on the engine side is pretty rudimentary technology. I'd
add a layer of fire-putty over the grommet shield on the
engine side. The bonanza uses a 90-degree flanged elbow
with about 1" i.d. to bring most wires through the firewall.
The elbow is on the engine side of the firewall. A piece
of firesleeve and two stainless steel clamps are used to
close the open end of the transition tightly around the
bundle. This technique has been tested in Bad Jack's house
of horrible tortures and shown to take 2000 degrees open flame
for a long time.
> If the alternator fuse is in the engine compartment, what are your
>preferences concerning how it is mounted?
As an in-line fuse with wires attached to both ends and
heat shrink over the whole. Our b-lead fuse kit is supplied
with all the necessary heat shrinks.
You CAN put the starter contactor inside . . . and bring the
alternator b-lead through instead of the always hot feed to
the starter contactor . . . the b-lead fuse is to protect the
b-lead from BATTERY current . . . not alternator current.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>This month's KP column is on crowbars. I'm going to do the opamp version as
>opposed to the NPN-PNP crosscoupled way you did it...but do you mind if I
>use the rather brilliant scheme you have for testing in the airplane using
>lantern batteries in series with the airplane battery? I'll give you
>credit, of course.
Take care that you insure LOTS of gate drive to the SCR.
The reason for cross-coupled transistors is to simulate the
4-layer trigger diodes that are now impossible to find in
low voltage versions.
The op-amp version can be more accurate in terms of setting
trip point . . . but accuracy is not a strong virtue
in ov protection. ANYTHING over 16 and less than 17 is
fine.
>I have absolutely no idea what SCR I'm going to use; I only have one in
>inventory and I'll probably use it. I know it is a Teccor, but I don't
>remember which version I used in the other application I had -- I can't even
>remember if it is logic level or sensitive gate. If it is the same number
>as yours, I promise I didn't steal it from you. It just shows what good
>design sense we both have {;-)
The MCR69 series devices from MOT have been tested and
used in our production OV modules for hundreds
of airplanes . . . low cost and plenty robust.
Still need to reply on your offer to supply Microair
product. I've been out of town last week and have a ton
of catch-up . . . I think I wasn't clear as to the
exact nature of your offer. I'll try to get to it later
today.
Fly comfortably . . .
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Who did Nuckolls say makes engraved |
panels?
>
>Bob Nuckolls mentioned an outfit that'll make custom engraved panels for
>switches and whatnot. I think he said they're laminated plexiglass,
>engraved from behind. Is that written up somewhere?
My personal favorite source of engraved panels is
offered by Werner Berry who has a website at:
http://www.aeroengraving.com/
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A Wire Query |
>I am just beginning my construction of a Europa Trigear and while I know
>it will be a while before I actually need it, I bought a copy of
>Aeroelectric Connection and have enjoyed reading it. I wonder if I might
>ask your opinion about choosing an insulation system. Most homebuilders
>seem to promote tefzel, and it is the only system available from AC
>Spruce, etc. From what I hear however the military and airliners are
>moving away from tefzel due to flammability, toxicity of combustion
>products, and relatively poor abrasion resistance. The new darling
>seems to be TKT.
>
>Is this a tempest in a teapot in your opinion or should I try to find a
>source for small quantities of TKT (which a web search failed at!).
60 years ago we wired airplanes with cotton covered rubber
and it smelled really bad when it burned, made lots of smoke
and fungus would munch it. What's more, it would pretty much
fall off the wires after 30 years or so.
40 years ago we got PVC with nylon jacket over it. It too smelled
bad, made lots of smoke . . . at least the fungus wouldn't eat it.
The nylon got brittle and fell off after 20 years or so but the PVC
hung in there better than rubber.
30 years ago we got teflon. It still smelled bad, made lots of
poisonous smoke but at least it didn't get brittle and break off.
It also had EXCELLENT temperature characteristics. However, it's
extrusion temperatures were so high that we had to put it over silver
plated wire. Expensive. The stuff was kinda soft and stripped
with difficulty.
20 years ago tefzel came along and it smelled bad, made lots
of somewhat less toxic smoke but was much more abrasion resistant.
It stripped cleaner than teflon and extruded onto wires at lower
temperatures so silver plating wasn't necessary. Still has excellent
performance at temperatures and is readily available at low cost.
Hmmm . . . 20 years is a LONG time . . . the wire manufacturers
are probably scrambling around trying to justify yet another
new wire . . . but I bet it still smells bad, smokes a lot
and will initially be harder to find and more expensive.
The FAA is paid to worry and airlines fall right in line
behind them . . . after all, who could be AGAINST making
the safest transportation in the universe yet more safe?
The bottom line is that only certified aircraft suffer
electrical emergencies by regulatory decree. There is no
reason for an owner built and maintained aircraft to
even get a wire real hot much less smoke it. We're allowed
to evolve our designs and FIX our aircraft when a problem
is identified.
If it were my airplane and had an unlimited expense
account with which to build it, I'd still go tefzel all
the way with the possible exception of a few pieces of
very flexible welding cable at choice spots for enhanced
maintenance.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Who did Nuckolls say makes engraved panels? |
| From: | "Steve Williams" <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
01:05:32 PM
Thanks, Bob.
Can you provide a bit more deatil about the engraved panels you described
at your seminar in Watsonville?
Werner Berry's web site doesn't offer a lot of detail on his products and
services. If I were to call him, I wouldn't know exactly what to ask for.
Also, you made some suggestions for applications of his stuff. Not just
switch legends, but also blind annunciators?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Who did Nuckolls say makes engraved panels? |
>
>
>Thanks, Bob.
>
>Can you provide a bit more deatil about the engraved panels you described
>at your seminar in Watsonville?
Sure . . . Werner offers reverse engraved panels with a
satin finish, lexan front surface. VERY resistant to scratching
and showing fingerprints. Panel color is a function of a plastic
layer laminated to the back of the lexan.
Engraving is accomplished from behind. You may fill the letters
with any color of paint so that the lettering viewed from
the front are colored. -OR- you may leave the lettering
unfilled. You can then place colored gells between the back
side of the placard and an illumination source to provide
brilliant, saturated colors of illuminated lettering that
essentially disappears (dead front) when illumination is
off.
>Werner Berry's web site doesn't offer a lot of detail on his products and
>services. If I were to call him, I wouldn't know exactly what to ask for.
>
>Also, you made some suggestions for applications of his stuff. Not just
>switch legends, but also blind annunciators?
He can build parts of about any needed size ranging from
whole panel overlays or placards for individual groupings
of controls.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back from the IA |
>
> He doesn't have to fly the airplane. He only needs to dictate
> a flight test ("go fly these approaches and flips all these
> knobs and flip these switches" . . . you don't even need
*** Yes, that's exactly what the inspector at the FSDO told me. I figured
to go one step at a time. Once I get the thing installed and signed off
VFR, I at least have an airworthy airplane. Then I can go back to the FSDO
and work up an IFR approval sequence, have the IA talk to the inspector,
see if he can be convinced. If not, go to another IA. Absolute last
resort, fly the airplane to the shop in the midwest where I bought the
radio.
Now there is another snag - in the first, VFR 337. In the text of that
337, I promise to verify that the altitude reporting system still works -
after hooking the GPS up to it, and installing isolation diodes in series
with the transponder inputs. The IA is freaking out over this, says he's
not a static-pitot guy, what am I asking him to sign? I was going to have
the avionics shop on the field do this, but they're pretty busy, and have
made it obvious that I am VERY low on their list of priorities ( I don't
spend much money ).
I think that if I get a static/pitot IFR cert done, he'll be comfortable
- even though it doesn't need it.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
Interesting, all this stuff about panel overlays... however, I've decided to
go for stick on legends on a painted panel (Europa) so what I would like is
laser cut, backed lettering to spec, rather like stick on Reg letters (or
numbers) but in 12-24 pt. Possibly even as paint masks... So far, I haven't
found anyone who can do it that small - anyone got any bright ideas?
Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 06/06/01 |
| From: | "Richard Deciero" <Richard_Deciero(at)raytheon.com> |
06/07/2001 08:13:52 AM
Fred,
I labored over the same question of safely getting the big, hot wire
through the firewall. My solution was to spin out a nylon bushing with a
5/8 ID, 7/8 OD and a head on it about 1 1/8 dia x .1 thick. Smooth out the
ends of the holes to a nice rounded edge. The bushing is secured to the
firewall with a -14 DG clamp and that is all bolted to a right angle
bracket that is riveted to the firewall. There are nylon bulkhead bushings
available from aircraft spruce (see page 374 of their latest catalog). I
found these after I made my own. I would recommend a minimum of a 3/4 ID.
Also I opted not to use an ammeter. I feel that a volt meter is adequate to
monitor the electrical system when used in conjunction with the B & C
voltage regulator. The regulator will alert me to an charging system
failure via the supplied warning light when the voltage from the bus drops
off of approx 13.8 volts, and my volt meter has an adjustable warning
light system that I will set at maybe 11 volts. With these two redundant
warning systems and the E-bus concept I feel confident in managing an
electrical system failure to a successful uneventful conclusion.
I have not installed a vacuum system and have planned to use electric
gyro's when I am done flying off my certification. Dual 17ah AGM batteries
are being used with one LSE electronic ignition. My airplane is an IFR
equipped Murphy Rebel and I hope to fly it this fall. I am experimenting
with high brightness LED's for warning lights. They provide more than
adequate visibility even in direct sunlight. Also check out the article in
Kitplanes March 2001 regarding panel lighting. It utilizes Superbright
LED's and offers very low current drain and long life. Maybe I can get rid
of the large light dimmer that I already installed.
Most of my electrical design and philosophy was developed in
conjunction with the Bingilis books, AC43, and most importantly the
AeroElectric Connection book. The E-bus concept was totally new to me until
I read The AEROELECTRIC Connection. Absolutly essential reading for anyone
building an airplane or even flying certified birds. And once again I must
commend and encourage Bob Nuckolls on his contribution to us all in the
flying community. His tireless efforts have benefited many I am sure. We
are lucky to have him on our side. I have also read some of the
constructive criticism regarding his book and was happy to read his post
regarding how he will address some of those issues. No book has all of the
answers and will not tell you how to wire your plane wire for wire. You
must read, read, and then read some more in order for us non electric types
to understand enough to get through the electrical system design.
Good luck,
Rick D.
Hudson, MA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Melvinke(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Panel legends |
Aerographics, at 4221 W. Eisenhower BLVD., Loveland, Colorado 80537; ph.
(970) 461-2057, or 1-800-336-9633, are the only folks that I have found able
to do the small sized computer-cut adhesive placards we need, and do a superb
job. Excellent work and value, and very experienced. Ask for Marilyn.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back from the IA |
>
> Now there is another snag - in the first, VFR 337. In the text of that
>337, I promise to verify that the altitude reporting system still works -
>after hooking the GPS up to it, and installing isolation diodes in series
>with the transponder inputs. The IA is freaking out over this, says he's
>not a static-pitot guy, what am I asking him to sign? I was going to have
>the avionics shop on the field do this, but they're pretty busy, and have
>made it obvious that I am VERY low on their list of priorities ( I don't
>spend much money ).
What you NEED is a gizmo like
http://www.airsport-corp.com/ifrvfdinfo.html
that reports what your transponder is telling the
ground with respect to your real altitude. This can
be used in conjunction with a pitot-static test set
on the ground to exercise the system over the full
range of interest . . . or used in the air to see that
altitudes reported translate smoothly in 100' increments
as you fly to your service ceiling. Either way, this
device requires no electrical connection to the airplane.
I've called the folks at Airsport and they're going
to see if they can do me a deal on a box that can't be
sold but is suitably functional. I can keep it around
here for rent/loan to folks who are wrestling with
the Big Bear . . .
Won't know for a couple of days but will let you and
the list know what I find out. Some of you may want
to consider buying this product as an accessory to
your airplane . . . check out the website.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
Bob:
"60 years ago ............cotton covered rubber "
"40 years ago we got PVC "
"30 years ago we got teflon"
"20 years ago tefzel came along "
What about Kapton? Isn't that what a lot of us are riding around on?
(Just curious) Ferg Europa #A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CBFLESHREN(at)aol.com |
For Charles Brame (who started this thread) or anyone intersted , I have two
pair of "THE best mag switches" available for sale . These are Microswitch
P/N 111AT25. They are less than one half inch wide so can be mounted one inch
apart on center & still be easily operated together w/ thumb & index finger.
They are three position : Down (off) is locked , must pull out to move to
"on" (center position) which is also a locked position, pull out again to
move to momentary "start" (top position) , when released from "start"
position lever returns to "on" (center position) . These are new switches
(factory pressed in nylon locknuts are virgin , never seen threads). The
switch assy contains two microswitches : each individually replacable
(readily available & about$4 ea) by drilling out two rivets , each rated @ 5
amps w/ one set each normally open & normally closed contacts. The sad ,
comical , disgusting part is that they "LIST" for $256 each from Microswitch.
Thats the price of all that Mil Specing , certifying stuff ! I will sell the
switches I have for $100 each if anyone is building "that" worthy of a
Starship that they must have them ! See attachment for photo . Respond on or
off the list if interested. Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Cartwright" <ccart(at)stanford.edu> |
| Subject: | RE: Wigwag with Galls Flasher |
3 questions
1. The green lead from the Galls unit is grounded to G3 PNL (what does this
stand for?)
2. Where can one obtains a Gall Traffic Flasher?
3. I have a local electronics store that stocks lots of "diodes", what specs
do I need to look for for mounting in this setup?
Sorry for the basic questions and thanks,
Chris Cartwright
Menlo Park,CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Bob:
> "60 years ago ............cotton covered rubber "
> "40 years ago we got PVC "
> "30 years ago we got teflon"
> "20 years ago tefzel came along "
>What about Kapton? Isn't that what a lot of us are riding around on?
>(Just curious) Ferg Europa #A064
Oh yeah . . . some guy was trying to sell me that stuff
for the GP-180 about 20 years ago. We considered it until
we got some feedback on unhappy experiences in some
military programs. I was surprised to hear later that
anyone was using it in volume.
It's a neat, very thin and relatively tough insulation
but it doesn't seem to survive well in the aircraft
environment. See:
http://www.iasa.com.au/twaletter.html
http://www.pleo.com/dupont/kapton.htm
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/kapton_mangold.htm
In spite of it's apparent popularity with some manufacturers
I've never considered it as a serious contender in
the Wiring Hall of Fame as the-best-we-knew-how-to-do
at-the-time.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Wot, no kapton? |
>
>Bob:
> "60 years ago ............cotton covered rubber "
> "40 years ago we got PVC "
> "30 years ago we got teflon"
> "20 years ago tefzel came along "
>What about Kapton? Isn't that what a lot of us are riding around on?
>(Just curious) Ferg Europa #A064
Most airliner builders have banned Kapton because it explodes if provoked,
( a Swissair DC10 caught fire and crashed due to a wiring problem behind
the panel if memory is working properly) Certainly the USAF have banned
it's use.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back from the IA |
> What you NEED is a gizmo like
>
> http://www.airsport-corp.com/ifrvfdinfo.html
>
** Yeah, I was already thinking about that.
> that reports what your transponder is telling the
> ground with respect to your real altitude. This can
> be used in conjunction with a pitot-static test set
> on the ground to exercise the system over the full
> range of interest . . .
*** Pitot-static test set? That's not a vacuum pump, is it?
Here's a plan I came up with:
I hook up a mity-vac to the static port. Pull the lever - the
altimeter starts to wind up. I call the tower - things are pretty
peaceful early in the morning - "Hi, I've just invented this virtual
vertical takeoff machine. Could you look at your scope and tell me
where I've got to?"
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
or used in the air to see that
> altitudes reported translate smoothly in 100' increments
> as you fly to your service ceiling. Either way, this
> device requires no electrical connection to the airplane.
>
> I've called the folks at Airsport and they're going
> to see if they can do me a deal on a box that can't be
> sold but is suitably functional. I can keep it around
> here for rent/loan to folks who are wrestling with
> the Big Bear . . .
>
> Won't know for a couple of days but will let you and
> the list know what I find out. Some of you may want
> to consider buying this product as an accessory to
> your airplane . . . check out the website.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
> ( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
> ( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
> ( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
> ( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
> ( Charles Kettering )
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
"mustangaero(at)yahoogroups.com" ,
plugs up rotary list ,
Rotary list , RV list ,
thorplist ,
aeroelectric list
| Subject: | Get a (cheap) charge out of this |
I think I may have a tip to offer the more uhh, frugal among
us.
While searching the shelves for plexi working tools at our
local Harbor Freight outlet, I took a long hard look at
their version of the little rechargable 'jump start'
packages everyone seems to own these days. The box says 17
amp. Sounds familiar. It says 400 amp starting power. Sounds
optimistic, but... Weight is listed as 19 lbs for the
package. Hmmmm....
So, I brought one home & took the back off. Guess what's
inside. There are couple of #4 cables (1 red & 1 black)
just about the right length to reach a master contactor. And
a rather cheap looking (and costs less) 0-15 V voltmeter.
And an AC trickle-charger. And several cigar lighter
connectors which I bet could be used for something, *and*,
even a little floodlight which might work as an emergency
panel light.
All these goodies for less than $40.
Oh, by the way, there's also that funny little black box
that weighs around 14 lbs. It looks suspiciously like some
rather expensive jetski batteries I've been reading about
lately, just without anyone's name on the black case.
I hope someone finds this useful.
Charlie
RV-4 sold
RV2+2 bought, working on a new windshield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Wigwag with Galls Flasher |
Chris,
You could install a WigWag Solid State Controller.
The Gall's Flasher was designed for installation in a police car. A
police car that is already wired. The Galls Flasher has been designed to
work with the factory wiring already in place in the police
car. But, this makes for a very strange wiring installation in an
airplane because the airplane does not have wires routed like the factory
cars. If you want to add to the circuit other features, this gets very
annoying. For example, making the leading edge light's 12 volt power
redundant.
Bill Benedict preached that the leading edge lights should be
redundant. That a fault in one light circuit should not make the other
light unusable. It would be unfortunate to have a wire short in one wing
and land in the dark because you did not build a redundant 12 volt power
system. It is most unfortunate to land in the dark with one good
light. The WigWag Solid State Controller has a redundant 12 volt power
design. To make the Galls redundant, I had to add two more relays in
addition to the relays in the Galls. The result was that, accounting for
all the components, the Galls real cost was more than the price of the WigWag.
The Galls Flasher flashes at more than twice the a rate that should be used
to optimizes your plane's noticeabilitiy. The rate should be slow enough
that the filament in the un-powered bulb stops glowing. That means the
other bulb has gotten to full bright which is important for being seen in
day light. This results in the point of light appearing to jump from one
wing tip to the other. We are trained to react to motion.
There are many other features available with the WigWag Solid State
Controller such as using different types of switches and arranging these
switches so that they perform the exact functions you would like to have in
your airplane.
For more information, go to http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ to see a
picture, the data sheets, the installation guide and several application
notes for different switch types and configurations.. Or ask me to send
you the 1490K Adobe acrobat file for these documents.
>
>
>3 questions
>1. The green lead from the Galls unit is grounded to G3 PNL (what does this
>stand for?)
>2.c
>==============================================
Bob Haan
http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/
bhaan(at)easystreet.com
Portland, OR
RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back from the IA |
>
>> What you NEED is a gizmo like
>>
>> http://www.airsport-corp.com/ifrvfdinfo.html
>>
>** Yeah, I was already thinking about that.
>
>> that reports what your transponder is telling the
>> ground with respect to your real altitude. This can
>> be used in conjunction with a pitot-static test set
>> on the ground to exercise the system over the full
>> range of interest . . .
>
>*** Pitot-static test set? That's not a vacuum pump, is it?
>Here's a plan I came up with:
>
> I hook up a mity-vac to the static port. Pull the lever - the
>altimeter starts to wind up. I call the tower - things are pretty
>peaceful early in the morning - "Hi, I've just invented this virtual
>vertical takeoff machine. Could you look at your scope and tell me
>where I've got to?"
That'll work too. The biggest concern for "accurate and
intact wiring" is to make sure that not only does the
value reported by the transponder roughly (+/- 100 ft)
agree with your altimeter (set for 29.92) but that ALL
increments of 100' are seen . . . that is, no missing
values. The coding of digital data between the
encoder and transponder is designed so that missing codes
will show up as some pretty gross errors.
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
>
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wigwag with Galls Flasher |
>
>3 questions
>1. The green lead from the Galls unit is grounded to G3 PNL (what does this
>stand for?)
This goes to ground. The term "PNL" is used on most of
our wiring diagrams to denote a common ground bus behind the
panel. We recommend:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#gndblk
>2. Where can one obtains a Gall Traffic Flasher?
See:
http://www.galls.com/shop/viewProductDetail.jsp?item=FS033
This is the model I tested for development of the wiring
diagrams at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/gallsww.pdf
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/galls2ww.pdf
>3. I have a local electronics store that stocks lots of "diodes", what specs
>do I need to look for for mounting in this setup?
See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#S401-25
click on larger image and print the photo.
The part is so UNcritical that ANY device that
looks like this on will do. Radio shack used to stock
one like it (diode bridge assembly good for about 25A
at 50v or more).
>Sorry for the basic questions and thanks,
>Chris Cartwright
>Menlo Park,CA
No problem.
With respect to debatable issues on the Galls options:
(1) the need to "optimize" the flash rate for visibility
encompasses two issues. (a) actual rate of flashing and
(b) how bright the lamps get on each flashing cycle. For
warning lights, the general rule of thumb for attention
getting is 3 flashes per second . . . 3 flashes/second
does not allow big bulbs to cycle over their maximum range
of full bright to invisible light output. Exactly what
IS optimal for wig-wags using the various high intensity
lamps with respect to the ergonomics of human perception
could be hotly debated . . . I aware of no documented
studies on this question. An anecdotal data point suggests
that when the policeman pulls up behind you with his
Galls system in operation, he's very hard to ignore much
less miss entirely for lack of "optimized" performance.
(2) both diagrams depicted for use of the Galls flasher
make normal operation of each lamp completely independent
of failures in the opposite lamp system -or- the Galls
flasher assembly.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back from the IA |
> > I hook up a mity-vac to the static port. Pull the lever - the
> >altimeter starts to wind up. I call the tower - things are pretty
> >peaceful early in the morning - "Hi, I've just invented this virtual
> >vertical takeoff machine. Could you look at your scope and tell me
> >where I've got to?"
>
> That'll work too. The biggest concern for "accurate and
*** Uh, no it won't. I finished my project today - after 70 hours of
work. My aches have aches. The plane is all together. The weight & balance
is done. Heck, I even made up a sticker for the logbook entry!
...But the IA won't sign. Nope, he sure won't. No matter what test I
accomplish on that transponder - even if I taught it to sit up and
speak French, he wouldn't sign. Doesn't know anything about transponders,
doesn't WANT to know anything about transponders. Just wants to see
a logbook entry from a sanctified static/pitot/transponder person. No
logbook entry, no washee. Period.
And the on-field avionics shop says they can't get me in the queue
for at least a week. Heck, with the amount of stuff they've got sitting
in front of the shop, a week sounds optimistic.
Anybody know of a traveling static-pitot guy in Northern California?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Back from the IA |
Can you get a ferry permit and go to another field/shop?
>
> ...But the IA won't sign. Nope, he sure won't. No matter
> what test I
> accomplish on that transponder - even if I taught it to sit up and
> speak French, he wouldn't sign. Doesn't know anything about
> transponders,
> doesn't WANT to know anything about transponders. Just wants to see
> a logbook entry from a sanctified static/pitot/transponder person. No
> logbook entry, no washee. Period.
>
> And the on-field avionics shop says they can't get me in
> the queue
> for at least a week. Heck, with the amount of stuff they've
> got sitting
> in front of the shop, a week sounds optimistic.
>
> Anybody know of a traveling static-pitot guy in Northern
> California?
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wire description |
>Hi Bob,
>
>I have aquired for a good price 1000 feet of 22759 / 7 - 6 wire. I am sure
>it is good quality but I can find no reference to / 7 in the lists of 22759
>wire you gave links to the other day. Can you point me in the right
>direction.
I think this stuff is pure Teflon as opposed to Tefzel. I can
only find brief chunks of the ratings out on the net, I'll need
to wait until Monday when I can get access to the detail
specs from my desk at RAC. However, given that the brief
specs call this stuff "TFE" with a 200C operating temperature,
I'm 99% certain that it's Teflon. Tefzel is tougher and is
called "ETFE" with a rating of only 150C. Also, you say
it's /7-6? 6AWG wire? Pretty hefty stuff.
>I have also noted that in the Raychem catalogue for spec 55 wire they
>describe wire as "airframe " or "hookup" but the working voltage and the
>temperature rating are the same ( the insulation is thinner for hookup than
>airframe ) can you describe what the criteria wold be to enable the use of
>hookup rather than airframe. It would seem to me that in a well protected
>harness, particularly in a non conductive structure like a Long EZ that
>there should be no problem with using the hookup wire for everything, but
>maybe I am missing something and besides I value your opinion.
I use spec 55 wire in some of my programs . . . not
sure as to the specific part numbers but the insulation
is about the same thickness as the 22759/16 that is
in very common usage in general aviation. If you have
a choice and the price differential isn't great, I'd
go for the heavier insulation.
I encourage my builders here in US to go to Aircraft
Spruce, or some other retailer of the "good" stuff
and pay retail if necessary . . . you won't spend
$100 on enough wire to do the whole airplane and there
is little risk in knowing exactly what you're getting.
I'll check out the detail 22759 spec Monday . . . might
see if I can get a .pdf copy to post on my website.
Good info for the troops to have access to.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Hi-temp wire ties |
Bob,
Do you know of a source of hi-temp wire ties, suitable for use forward
of the firewall? Lots of folks seem to think that the black nylon ones are
OK, but their temp specs are the same, they're just treated for UV
resistance for outdoor use. It's clumsy to use Adel clamps all over the
place, and the stainless ties want to cut into insulation.
Jim Cameron
Lancair ES Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Kluijfhout, PE1RUI" <jessevli(at)zeelandnet.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi-temp wire ties |
Hi Jim,
Your right. At my work as A&P I see a lot of
white and black wire ties.
They are fine in front of the fire wall as long as you
keep some space (few inches) between the exhaust
and youre wire ties. Its better for the ties and for
youre cable.
If you mount them too close to the exhaust they
will damage youre cable as they tend to meld into
the cables.
I once had the same with wiring near the exhaust
prevented to chaving with spiralex, but the spiralex
(I dont know if thats the correct word) melded and
made a short circuit in the cables.
Just be carefull when routing youre cable.
Regards,
Jesse
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. N. Cameron" <toucan@the-i.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 4:03 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hi-temp wire ties
<toucan@the-i.net>
>
> Bob,
>
> Do you know of a source of hi-temp wire ties, suitable for use forward
> of the firewall? Lots of folks seem to think that the black nylon ones
are
> OK, but their temp specs are the same, they're just treated for UV
> resistance for outdoor use. It's clumsy to use Adel clamps all over the
> place, and the stainless ties want to cut into insulation.
>
> Jim Cameron
> Lancair ES Builder
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John W Livingston" <jliving(at)erinet.com> |
| Subject: | Hi-temp wire ties |
Jim,
I was out looking over the C-17 production line a few weeks ago. Got a
chance to look at the engine as delivered from the factory. Alot of the wire
bundles routed about the engine were neatly tied off with cording. It looked
very neat and tidy, if not a little old fashioned. Sometimes the old ways
are hard to beat.
John
...
> Do you know of a source of hi-temp wire ties, suitable for use forward
>of the firewall? Lots of folks seem to think that the black nylon ones are
>OK, but their temp specs are the same, they're just treated for UV
>resistance for outdoor use. It's clumsy to use Adel clamps all over the
>place, and the stainless ties want to cut into insulation.
>Jim Cameron
>Lancair ES Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
My son has a large roll of telephone cable containing eight (twisted
pairs?) color coded wires. It just so happens I have eight wires going
to the tail of my RV-6 (six to the MAC trim unit and two to the tail
light.) The cable is convenient, light weight, and free. Is there any
reason NOT to use it in an airplane?
Charlie Brame
RV-6AQB - Canopy
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi-temp wire ties |
>
>Bob,
>
> Do you know of a source of hi-temp wire ties, suitable for use forward
>of the firewall? Lots of folks seem to think that the black nylon ones are
>OK, but their temp specs are the same, they're just treated for UV
>resistance for outdoor use. It's clumsy to use Adel clamps all over the
>place, and the stainless ties want to cut into insulation.
>
>Jim Cameron
>Lancair ES Builder
Ties treated for superior UV resistance are either
black or dark green. You're right, the material's
temperature ratings remain unchanged. You can buy
ties made of Tefzel . . . but they're about $1 each.
The plain-vanilla ties work pretty good under the cowl.
It's going to be hydrocarbon fumes and ozone that will
attack them more than gross temperature. I've seen
the plain vanilla ties used very successfully under
the cowl . . you just have to snip them off and replace
them every annual. An easy, low cost alternative
to super-ties.
If you want a wire bundling methodology that has
stood the test of time in the field, buy some Dacron
flat-lace . . . I prefer the waxed variety over the
lacquered . .
When you mentioned Adel clamps . . . I presume you're
also wanting ties that have mounting bases on them
to secure bundles to structure. I wouldn't use
ANY plastic device for this job. If the bundle
needs mechanical security to airframe, the Adel
clamp is the only way to go. Individual string or
nylon ties are fine for holding bundle shape but
not for mechanical support.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Telephone wire |
>
>My son has a large roll of telephone cable containing eight (twisted
>pairs?) color coded wires. It just so happens I have eight wires going
>to the tail of my RV-6 (six to the MAC trim unit and two to the tail
>light.) The cable is convenient, light weight, and free. Is there any
>reason NOT to use it in an airplane?
Most telephone cable is single strand wire and pvc insulation.
I don't recommend it. Ya just can't beat a nicely tied
bundle of Tefzel for price and performance in your airplane.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi-temp wire ties |
> Do you know of a source of hi-temp wire ties, suitable for use forward
> of the firewall
http://www.terminaltown.com/ - I ordered some but they don't seem to be in
stock yet.
Gary K.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William B. Swears" <wswears(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Telephone wire |
I'm gonna jump in here. Telephone wire tends to get crumbly and fragile in uncontrolled
temperature environments. I've ended up replacing phone lines in a couple houses
that was wired
just fine, but aged and developed breaks in the insulation, then started shorting.
I'd think that
would just accelerate in a plane.
Bill
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >My son has a large roll of telephone cable containing eight (twisted
> >pairs?) color coded wires. It just so happens I have eight wires going
> >to the tail of my RV-6 (six to the MAC trim unit and two to the tail
> >light.) The cable is convenient, light weight, and free. Is there any
> >reason NOT to use it in an airplane?
> Most telephone cable is single strand wire and pvc insulation.
> I don't recommend it. Ya just can't beat a nicely tied
> bundle of Tefzel for price and performance in your airplane.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
> ( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
> ( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
> ( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
> ( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
> ( Charles Kettering )
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jayeandscott" <jayeandscott(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi-temp wire ties |
Doesn't anyone use Koroseal lacing anymore? It's still available and
approved as a substitute for clamps anywhere on the aircraft.
----- Original Message -----
From: John W Livingston <jliving(at)erinet.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Hi-temp wire ties
>
> Jim,
>
> I was out looking over the C-17 production line a few weeks ago. Got a
> chance to look at the engine as delivered from the factory. Alot of the
wire
> bundles routed about the engine were neatly tied off with cording. It
looked
> very neat and tidy, if not a little old fashioned. Sometimes the old ways
> are hard to beat.
>
> John
>
>
> ...
> > Do you know of a source of hi-temp wire ties, suitable for use
forward
> >of the firewall? Lots of folks seem to think that the black nylon ones
are
> >OK, but their temp specs are the same, they're just treated for UV
> >resistance for outdoor use. It's clumsy to use Adel clamps all over the
> >place, and the stainless ties want to cut into insulation.
>
> >Jim Cameron
> >Lancair ES Builder
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James K. Glindemann" <jglind(at)netspace.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: wire description |
"ETFE" with a rating of only 150C. Also, you say
> it's /7-6? 6AWG wire? Pretty hefty stuff.
It is 6AWG
>
> >I have also noted that in the Raychem catalogue for spec 55 wire they
> >describe wire as "airframe " or "hookup" but the working voltage and the
> >temperature rating are the same ( the insulation is thinner for hookup
than
> >airframe ) can you describe what the criteria wold be to enable the use
of
> >hookup rather than airframe. It would seem to me that in a well protected
> >harness, particularly in a non conductive structure like a Long EZ that
> >there should be no problem with using the hookup wire for everything, but
> >maybe I am missing something and besides I value your opinion.
>
> I use spec 55 wire in some of my programs . . . not
> sure as to the specific part numbers but the insulation
> is about the same thickness as the 22759/16 that is
> in very common usage in general aviation. If you have
> a choice and the price differential isn't great, I'd
> go for the heavier insulation.
The wire I am refering to here is 22759/33 which I have also aquired large
quantities of (many thousands of feet), mostly 28, 26, 24,22 and 20 guages.
I am not planning on using the 28 or 26 on the aircraft except maybe inside
boxes for various units I will be making up ( that is what experimental is
all about )
The only reason I mentioned the Raychem spec 55 is that that was where I
found the reference to "hookup" for 22759/33 as opposed to "airframe",
Best regards
James K Glindemann
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hi-temp wire ties |
Thread-Topic: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hi-temp wire ties
Thread-Index: AcDx1KfXV4WnnR36RS+6Z5Pumbp0igAONNRg
| From: | "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com> |
Check out the mcmaster-carr catalog (www.mcmaster.com), page 702. They
have 100 packs of 4" tefzel zip ties for $12.75. Their service is
excellent, too.
Bob Japundza
RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying 155 hours
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 12:18 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hi-temp wire ties
>
>
> III"
>
> <toucan@the-i.net>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> > Do you know of a source of hi-temp wire ties, suitable
> for use forward
> >of the firewall? Lots of folks seem to think that the black
> nylon ones are
> >OK, but their temp specs are the same, they're just treated for UV
> >resistance for outdoor use. It's clumsy to use Adel clamps
> all over the
> >place, and the stainless ties want to cut into insulation.
> >
> >Jim Cameron
> >Lancair ES Builder
>
> Ties treated for superior UV resistance are either
> black or dark green. You're right, the material's
> temperature ratings remain unchanged. You can buy
> ties made of Tefzel . . . but they're about $1 each.
>
> The plain-vanilla ties work pretty good under the cowl.
> It's going to be hydrocarbon fumes and ozone that will
> attack them more than gross temperature. I've seen
> the plain vanilla ties used very successfully under
> the cowl . . you just have to snip them off and replace
> them every annual. An easy, low cost alternative
> to super-ties.
>
> If you want a wire bundling methodology that has
> stood the test of time in the field, buy some Dacron
> flat-lace . . . I prefer the waxed variety over the
> lacquered . .
>
> When you mentioned Adel clamps . . . I presume you're
> also wanting ties that have mounting bases on them
> to secure bundles to structure. I wouldn't use
> ANY plastic device for this job. If the bundle
> needs mechanical security to airframe, the Adel
> clamp is the only way to go. Individual string or
> nylon ties are fine for holding bundle shape but
> not for mechanical support.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
> ( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
> ( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
> ( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
> ( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
> ( Charles Kettering )
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Thread-Topic: AeroElectric-List: Telephone wire
Thread-Index: AcDx1TLywcbfsOqCQtGoARgqICus7QAOaL+w
| From: | "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com> |
Charlie,
Don't use it unless it's stranded. You can go down to your local radio
shack and pick up some ethernet CAT5 patch cord; it's stranded and is
the same gauge as the MAC servo wiring, and has the same color-coding
for the wires. Just clip the RG-45 ends off the patch cord and you're
in business. They sell them in in various lengths. Radio shack also
carries small crimp splices that also work well for wiring the MAC
servos. I wouldn't advise using the same cable for the tail position
light.
Bob Japundza
RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying 155 hours
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Brame [mailto:charleyb(at)earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 12:02 PM
> To: AeroElectric List
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Telephone wire
>
>
>
>
> My son has a large roll of telephone cable containing eight (twisted
> pairs?) color coded wires. It just so happens I have eight wires going
> to the tail of my RV-6 (six to the MAC trim unit and two to the tail
> light.) The cable is convenient, light weight, and free. Is there any
> reason NOT to use it in an airplane?
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6AQB - Canopy
> San Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi-temp wire ties |
Bob;
The page you cite at McMaster-Carr does indeed list tefzel cable ties in
various sizes, but you will notice a red asterisk next to the price
indicating the package size to be 25 not 100 as are most of the other
materials. (Not meaning to be picky, just trying to keep the record
straight.)
Bob McC
>
>Check out the mcmaster-carr catalog (www.mcmaster.com), page 702. They
>have 100 packs of 4" tefzel zip ties for $12.75. Their service is
>excellent, too.
>Bob Japundza
>RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying 155 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hi-temp wire ties |
Thread-Topic: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hi-temp wire ties
Thread-Index: AcDyHPi4gTeCoAcrTIyEVD/P8JYfHAAA9Fgg
| From: | "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com> |
Hi Bob,
You are correct. I should have paid more attention to the fine print!
FWIW, when I installed the wiring in the engine compartment I opted for
the fireproof ties on the same page. My biggest concern was not having
anything up front that would support combustion. They've been holding
up well, especially on the wiring that passes under the cylinders to the
alternator. I did a burn test on them and they melted, but didn't catch
on fire as advertised.
Bob Japundza
RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying 155 hours
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert McCallum [mailto:robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 9:02 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hi-temp wire ties
>
>
>
>
> Bob;
>
> The page you cite at McMaster-Carr does indeed list tefzel
> cable ties in
> various sizes, but you will notice a red asterisk next to the price
> indicating the package size to be 25 not 100 as are most of the other
> materials. (Not meaning to be picky, just trying to keep the record
> straight.)
>
> Bob McC
>
>
> >
>
> >Check out the mcmaster-carr catalog (www.mcmaster.com), page
> 702. They
>
> >have 100 packs of 4" tefzel zip ties for $12.75. Their service is
> >excellent, too.
>
> >Bob Japundza
> >RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying 155 hours
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hi-temp wire ties |
----- Original Message -----
From: J. N. Cameron <toucan@the-i.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 09:03
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hi-temp wire ties
<toucan@the-i.net>
>
> Bob,
>
> Do you know of a source of hi-temp wire ties, suitable for use forward
> of the firewall?
www.terminaltown.com has 3-3/4" and 7" tefzel cable ties in stock. $8.40
per 20 for the 3-3/4" and $17.60 per 20 for the 7".
Gaylen Lerohl
Terminaltown.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wire description |
>
>
>"ETFE" with a rating of only 150C. Also, you say
>> it's /7-6? 6AWG wire? Pretty hefty stuff.
>
>It is 6AWG
Hmmmm . . . 1000' of that stuff will wire a LOT
of airplanes. About the only place you'd use that
gage of wire would be between the alternator
b-lead terminal and the starter contactor . . . and
from starter contactor to main bus . . . perhaps
6-8' of wire per airplane.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Telephone wire |
>
>I'm gonna jump in here. Telephone wire tends to get crumbly and fragile in uncontrolled
>temperature environments. I've ended up replacing phone lines in a couple houses
that was wired
>just fine, but aged and developed breaks in the insulation, then started shorting.
I'd think that
>would just accelerate in a plane.
>
>Bill
Exactly . . . PVC does that. Someone else suggested some
Cat5 network cable as being stranded conductors and
perhaps more suited . . . except it it's STILL PVC.
Please folks, we're building the best airplanes to
have ever flown . . . as long as we don't regress to
the 1960's when PVC was the best we knew how to do
back then . . .
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Hi-temp wire ties |
>
>Check out the mcmaster-carr catalog (www.mcmaster.com), page 702. They
>have 100 packs of 4" tefzel zip ties for $12.75. Their service is
>excellent, too.
These are much lower cost . . . about $.50 each after you
adjust for the package size of 25 pieces. Not too bad.
Here's Newark's listing of lacing tapes:
http://www.newark.com/C118_modules/6285.html
Also LC140 and LC143 tapes from Allied here:
http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.asp?FN=300.pdf
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Airmap 100 antenna |
I'm in need of a new coax connector for the external antenna cable for my
Lowrance Airmap 100. Does anyone know what style it is ( ie, Type F, TNC,
etc.)? This is for the connection on the back of the GPS unit. Lowrance
wants $100 for a complete molded assy. which includes the antenna.
Thanks,
Stan Blanton
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Raychem Polyswitch polyfuses |
In the July issue of Kitplanes, pg 5, Lisa Jones from Tyco electronics
categorically states that the Polyswitch polyfuses "are not tested for, nor
will they be tested for true FAA approvals" and also says "We believe that
your article may lead the reader to believe that Polyswitch resettable
fuses are appropriate for use in the application you discuss, and we do not
recommend our products for this use. Please do not encourage your readers
to use our products believing the information in the article is accurate or
that we are working toward FAA approvals."
That's enough for me, I guess.
She also points out that putting the polyfuses "in parallel does not yield
twice the amperage protection as is proposed in the article."
Too bad she didn't explain why about any of this - if it's just liability
CYA, then I understand that. If there is an engineering reason, that would
be useful information, too. Sigh. Makes me wonder about "intended purpose"
and FAA approval" for automotive type fuses, too.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Raychem Polyswitch polyfuses |
>
>
> She also points out that putting the polyfuses "in parallel does not yield
> twice the amperage protection as is proposed in the article."
>
> Too bad she didn't explain why about any of this - if it's just liability
> CYA, then I understand that. If there is an engineering reason, that would
> be useful information, too.
*** I would guess that there is no way to guarantee equal current sharing
between the two parallelled fuses - unless they hold the internal resistance
of the fuse to a tight tolerance. If the fuses resistances are not equal,
one of them will "hog" the current.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kempthornes" <kempthornes(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Raychem Polyswitch polyfuses |
> between the two parallelled fuses - unless they hold the internal
resistance
> of the fuse to a tight tolerance. If the fuses resistances are not equal,
> one of them will "hog" the current.
Time for something like mesh currents etc???
If the fuses resistances are not accurate won't the fuse ratings also be
off.?
At any rate, it sounds like a hokie* setup.
(* don't read this - go pound your rivets! -- There was once a tractor
manufacturer named Hoke - his product did fare well in the market as the
weird design made forward viewing of such things as rows of crops nearly
impossible. I wonder if that is the origin of "hokey"?)
Hal Kempthorne
RV6a N7HK (Valentine) FLYING
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Telephone wire |
None of the cat 5 wire I've ever seen was stranded. It's all twisted pairs
of solid copper of about 22 ga. The high number of twists per foot make it
less likely to induce noise from other pairs (there's 8 pair in the cable)
and that's why computer networks use it. It's also good, if not overkill,
for telephone. I have plenty of it laying around, but don't intend to use it
in my airplane.
Ed Holyoke
General building contractor
RV-6 QB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 7:42 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Telephone wire
>
> >
> >I'm gonna jump in here. Telephone wire tends to get crumbly and fragile
in uncontrolled
> >temperature environments. I've ended up replacing phone lines in a
couple houses that was wired
> >just fine, but aged and developed breaks in the insulation, then started
shorting. I'd think that
> >would just accelerate in a plane.
> >
> >Bill
>
> Exactly . . . PVC does that. Someone else suggested some
> Cat5 network cable as being stranded conductors and
> perhaps more suited . . . except it it's STILL PVC.
> Please folks, we're building the best airplanes to
> have ever flown . . . as long as we don't regress to
> the 1960's when PVC was the best we knew how to do
> back then . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
> ( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
> ( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
> ( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
> ( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
> ( Charles Kettering )
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Telephone wire |
Opps... Make that 4 pair.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Telephone wire
>
> None of the cat 5 wire I've ever seen was stranded. It's all twisted
pairs
> of solid copper of about 22 ga. The high number of twists per foot make it
> less likely to induce noise from other pairs (there's 8 pair in the cable)
> and that's why computer networks use it. It's also good, if not overkill,
> for telephone. I have plenty of it laying around, but don't intend to use
it
> in my airplane.
>
> Ed Holyoke
> General building contractor
> RV-6 QB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 7:42 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Telephone wire
>
>
>
> >
>
> > >
> > >I'm gonna jump in here. Telephone wire tends to get crumbly and
fragile
> in uncontrolled
> > >temperature environments. I've ended up replacing phone lines in a
> couple houses that was wired
> > >just fine, but aged and developed breaks in the insulation, then
started
> shorting. I'd think that
> > >would just accelerate in a plane.
> > >
> > >Bill
> >
> > Exactly . . . PVC does that. Someone else suggested some
> > Cat5 network cable as being stranded conductors and
> > perhaps more suited . . . except it it's STILL PVC.
> > Please folks, we're building the best airplanes to
> > have ever flown . . . as long as we don't regress to
> > the 1960's when PVC was the best we knew how to do
> > back then . . .
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sky2high(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Eliminating Switch Contact Noise Generation |
I have a Lancair 320 with a gear hydraulic system using pressure switches the
fluid circuits to activate high current carrying relays which ulitmately
energize the pump. A recently installed "newer generation" hi pressure
switch (1200 psi) oozes closed as the pressure drops and introduces a 1 or
1.5 second burst of noise thru the radio as the contacts come together before
the pump actually runs. This noise is isolated to the switch by pulling the
gear system circuit breaker in flight, waiting for the pressure to bleed down
and completely close the pressure switch contacts followed by closing the
breaker to witness only a blip of pump activity with no radio noise.
Even though the switch action may be bad, is there a simple electronic "fix"
in the contact circuitry to eliminate contact make/break noise? Will the
contacts eventually become useless because of carbon buildup due to arcing?
Thanks,
Scott Krueger
N92EX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Eliminating Switch Contact Noise |
Generation
>
>I have a Lancair 320 with a gear hydraulic system using pressure switches the
>fluid circuits to activate high current carrying relays which ulitmately
>energize the pump. A recently installed "newer generation" hi pressure
>switch (1200 psi) oozes closed as the pressure drops and introduces a 1 or
>1.5 second burst of noise thru the radio as the contacts come together before
>the pump actually runs. This noise is isolated to the switch by pulling the
>gear system circuit breaker in flight, waiting for the pressure to bleed down
>and completely close the pressure switch contacts followed by closing the
>breaker to witness only a blip of pump activity with no radio noise.
>
>Even though the switch action may be bad, is there a simple electronic "fix"
>in the contact circuitry to eliminate contact make/break noise? Will the
>contacts eventually become useless because of carbon buildup due to arcing?
>
>Thanks,
>Scott Krueger
>N92EX
Your concerns are valid . . . a switch that takes so long
to "tease" closed is subject to accelerated electrical wear.
First suggestion is to find a switch with a better snap
action. There are LOTS of pressure switch manufacturers.
There has to be a better part out there. Second, you could
use some sort of electronic circuity between the switch
and it's loads to eliminate the noise by reducing the
current through the switch. However, this adds to parts
count and drives reliability down. As I recall, those
switches drive intermittent duty contactors . . . which
may have high coil current requirements. Do you know the
resistance of the coils on these contactors? Do you
have a make and part number on the switch that's giving
you problems?
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Raychem Polyswitch polyfuses |
>
>In the July issue of Kitplanes, pg 5, Lisa Jones from Tyco electronics
>categorically states that the Polyswitch polyfuses "are not tested for, nor
>will they be tested for true FAA approvals" and also says "We believe that
>your article may lead the reader to believe that Polyswitch resettable
>fuses are appropriate for use in the application you discuss, and we do not
>recommend our products for this use. Please do not encourage your readers
>to use our products believing the information in the article is accurate or
>that we are working toward FAA approvals."
>
>That's enough for me, I guess.
>
>She also points out that putting the polyfuses "in parallel does not yield
>twice the amperage protection as is proposed in the article."
>
>Too bad she didn't explain why about any of this - if it's just liability
>CYA, then I understand that. If there is an engineering reason, that would
>be useful information, too. Sigh. Makes me wonder about "intended purpose"
>and FAA approval" for automotive type fuses, too.
First, the FAA doesn't "approve" any particular part
for use on aircraft. An aircraft manufacturer can propose
to use ANY part it chooses in it's basic design and the
FAA will then approve the design. There are no doubt
many Polyfuse type products in service inside appliances
that are approved . . . automotive ATC style fuses can
be found in some of the new Cessnas too . . .
At Raytheon, I'm aware of at least three different attempts
over the past 20 years to consider polyfuses for inclusion
into our designs . . . to date, I'm aware of no takers
on any of RAC/Beechcraft products.
That doesn't mean that the polyfuse doesn't work as the
data says it's supposed to. Decisions for NOT using them
have to include performance, installation ease, reliability,
cost/performance as compared to alternatives, maintainability,
customer acceptance, etc, etc. Enthusiastic supporters of
the polyfuse as replacement for breakers and fuses have
concentrated on specifications only and brushed aside or
ignored all the details that boil down to "total cost of
ownership and is it worth it for the perceived performance?".
It took me 15-20 years to appreciate the
scope of consideration required to craft the elegant
design. I'm still looking for a combination of
parts that will top the cost/performance of the
fuse-block/toggle-switch combination of power
distribution and control. When I find it, you folks
will be the first ones to hear about it.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airmap 100 antenna |
>
>I'm in need of a new coax connector for the external antenna cable for my
>Lowrance Airmap 100. Does anyone know what style it is ( ie, Type F, TNC,
>etc.)? This is for the connection on the back of the GPS unit. Lowrance
>wants $100 for a complete molded assy. which includes the antenna.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Stan Blanton
>RV-6
I need to see the connector or a good picture of it.
Do you have a damaged one you can send me?
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Raychem Polyswitch polyfuses |
>
>
> >
> >In the July issue of Kitplanes, pg 5, Lisa Jones from Tyco electronics
> >categorically states that the Polyswitch polyfuses "are not tested for, nor
> >will they be tested for true FAA approvals" and also says "We believe that
> >your article may lead the reader to believe that Polyswitch resettable
> >fuses are appropriate for use in the application you discuss, and we do not
> >recommend our products for this use. Please do not encourage your readers
> >to use our products believing the information in the article is accurate or
> >that we are working toward FAA approvals."
> >
> >That's enough for me, I guess.
> >
> >She also points out that putting the polyfuses "in parallel does not yield
> >twice the amperage protection as is proposed in the article."
> >
> >Too bad she didn't explain why about any of this - if it's just liability
> >CYA, then I understand that. If there is an engineering reason, that would
> >be useful information, too. Sigh. Makes me wonder about "intended purpose"
> >and FAA approval" for automotive type fuses, too.
>
> First, the FAA doesn't "approve" any particular part
> for use on aircraft. An aircraft manufacturer can propose
> to use ANY part it chooses in it's basic design and the
> FAA will then approve the design. There are no doubt
> many Polyfuse type products in service inside appliances
> that are approved . . . automotive ATC style fuses can
> be found in some of the new Cessnas too . . .
I wonder why the Tyco representative got it wrong. Especially to come out
and deny their part for use like that. Most companies welcome new uses for
their product.
> At Raytheon, I'm aware of at least three different attempts
> over the past 20 years to consider polyfuses for inclusion
> into our designs . . . to date, I'm aware of no takers
> on any of RAC/Beechcraft products. That doesn't mean that the
> polyfuse doesn't work as the
> data says it's supposed to. Decisions for NOT using them
> have to include performance, installation ease, reliability,
> cost/performance as compared to alternatives, maintainability,
> customer acceptance, etc, etc. Enthusiastic supporters of
> the polyfuse as replacement for breakers and fuses have
> concentrated on specifications only and brushed aside or
> ignored all the details that boil down to "total cost of
> ownership and is it worth it for the perceived performance?".
I still can't quite agree with that, though. If you are going to have a pc
board power controller, fuses are much clumsier to use than polyfuses and
this very much includes "total cost of ownership and is it worth it for the
perceived performance? For many of the considerations listed above, I
think (according to the companies' published specs) polyfuses gets the
nod. I couldn't easily find any firm reliability numbers on the ATC
fuse/fuse block combo, though, I would like to - its not in the
Aeroelectric Connection) I think a pc board controller could make sense - I
can't say I'm wild about the idea of an ov module(a pc board itself)
hanging out there on a skyhook, for one. I am trying add a consideration,
not ignore some - perhaps not so relevant to commercial aircraft with its
AP brotherhood, but adding the consideration of maintainability to the list
of factors for owner built and maintained aircraft is important, I think.
However, I am not going to use a part when a company spokesperson has
stated its a bad idea, even if she apparently doesn't understand the
approval process. Should some spokesperson for fuse companies come out and
state they are not recommended for aircraft use, I guess I won't use them
either, even if they are hidden inside a Cessna. I just wish I knew why
they say what they say. Is it really just that there is not enough sales
volume to justify the liability?
> It took me 15-20 years to appreciate the
> scope of consideration required to craft the elegant
> design. I'm still looking for a combination of
> parts that will top the cost/performance of the
> fuse-block/toggle-switch combination of power
> distribution and control. When I find it, you folks
> will be the first ones to hear about it.
That's why I am going with many of your ideas, even though I might disagree
with the argumentation from time to time. Most of what I see I do really
appreciate and will use.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <nthomas(at)mmcable.com> |
| Subject: | Battery suggestions |
Hello Aeroelectric list,
I am researching to buy a battery for my Pulsar project. I have the 3300 cc
Jabiru 6 cylinder engine. Jabiru recommends a 20ah battery. I found that Digikey
offers a 20ah panasonic SLA for $47. B&C has a 20ah for $124. I can't tell that
the panasonic is any worse than the B&C. Anyone have any recommendations?
Thanks,
Ned
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 06/11/01 |
Once again, I find myself turning to the "amateur" gorup for infomation none
of the "certicicated" people seem to have! Glad I found this list!
One of the Bellanca group guys posted this
<<<<>>>
Anyone know the answer?
C'mon guys..make me look good here!
Thanks,
Dave Leonard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com> |
Once again, I find myself turning to the "amateur" group for information
none
of the "certificated" people seem to have! Glad I found this list!
One of the Bellanca group guys posted this
<<<<>>>
Anyone know the answer?
C'mon guys..make me look good here!
Thanks,
Dave Leonard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian B. Crowe" <ian.crowe(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 06/11/01 |
----- Original Message -----
From: "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 8:18 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 06/11/01
>
> Once again, I find myself turning to the "amateur" gorup for infomation
none
> of the "certicicated" people seem to have! Glad I found this list!
>
> One of the Bellanca group guys posted this
>
>
> <<<< Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:56:55 EDT
> From: CRQVikingPilot(at)aol.com
> Subject: Relay
>
> Hey has anyone been able to find the 6V relay that senses the alternator
has
> failed and illuminates the warning light? My 1971 SV has a malfunctioning
> one that keeps the light on all the time the engine is running. My
mechanic
> called Bellanca and they are not returning calls and Millers said it isn't
> available>>>>
>
>
> Anyone know the answer?
>
> C'mon guys..make me look good here!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave Leonard
>
>
Try any of the electronic supply houses, Digikey, Mouser, etc. Digikey has
a 5 volt coil SPST, NO contacts rated at 6amps Part#PB353ND $6.22
Try them. As a better alternative get their catalog and pick your own
relay. There are lots of 5volt relays that would work and you can always
put a resistance in series with the operating coil to bring the 6 volts down
to the specified 5 volts.
Ian Crowe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | re: switch configuration |
Bob
How would I wire a situation where I want 4 items to have separate
breakers, but I would like 1 switch to turn them all on/off? They
have different breaker requirements.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Raychem PolySwitch Prohibition in Aircraft ? |
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Raychem Polyswitch polyfuses
>In the July issue of Kitplanes, pg 5, Lisa Jones from Tyco electronics
categorically states that the Polyswitch polyfuses "are not tested for, nor
will they be tested for true FAA approvals"...She also points out that
putting the polyfuses "in parallel does not yield twice the amperage
protection as is proposed in the article."...Too bad she didn't explain why
about any of this - if it's just liability CYA, then I understand that. If
there is an engineering reason, that would be useful information, too.
Sigh. Makes me wonder about "intended purpose" and FAA approval" for
automotive type fuses, too. Gary Liming<
Raychem's own Application Notes show how to account for parallel Polyswitch
operation. Essentially the problem is that self-heating of parallel
Polyswitches can significantly alters device behavior. Two thermally
isolated Polyswitches - ie Polyswitches that don't heat each other - behave
like two separate Polyswitches. Equal-valued thermally isolated Polyswitches
operating in parallel will have double the hold current and half the
resistance. However, when two Polyswitches are not thermally isolated - ie
when they are too close together - they interact, and change their behavior
in complex ways.
I don't see anything in Raychem's Polyswitch datasheets or App notes that
would prohibit operation in aircraft, but the overall impression is that
Polyswitches are not simply plug-in replacements for fuses. Polyswitch
characteristics are highly dependent on thermal conditions surrounding the
Polyswitch circuitry - airflow, ambient temperature, heat sinks, etc, so
that Polyswitch behavior in any given circuitry is difficult to predict
without substantial testing or modeling. Worse yet, Polyswitch performance
may not be closely repeatable between production batches. Even a single
Polyswitch has hysteresis - its own characteristics change after the first
trip. My guess is that Raychem wants to avoid being seen as encouraging
aviation use of the Polyswitch for these reasons. Also, Raychem has the
usual litigation paranoia: their App Note on medical applications strongly
cautions against using the Polyswitch in any situation where failure of the
Polyswitch "may reasonably be expected to cause" the failure of the system
or affect its safety. Given the lunatic judgments civil juries award these
days, Raychem has to protect itself as best it can.
-Vaso
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Raychem PolySwitch Prohibition in Aircraft ? |
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Raychem Polyswitch polyfuses
>I don't see anything in Raychem's Polyswitch datasheets or App notes that
>would prohibit operation in aircraft,
Raychem doesn't have the authority to prohibit their use in aircraft. They
can say they don't want any part of it, and even refuse to sell to anyone
with aircraft in their name as some company's have done, but the FAA can
approve whatever design has been shown to meet their interpretation of the
regs.
>but the overall impression is that Polyswitches are not simply
>plug-in replacements for fuses.
Exactly. In order to prevent nuisance tripping, you size the polyfuse
according to it's hold current at the hot end of the operating environment.
The wire then must be sized according to the polyfuse's trip current at the
cold end of the operating environment. This may result in having to use
wire that is larger than a fuse or circuit breaker would demand. In the
certificated world, trying to plug and play in place of a fuse would most
likely not meet the requirements of 23.1357:
(c) Each resettable circuit protective device ("trip free" device in which
the tripping mechanism cannot be overridden by the operating control) must
be designed so that --
(1) A manual operation is required to restore service after tripping;
David Swartzendruber
Not building yet
Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl(at)centurytel.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Tygo Electric's Polyfuse |
Gary
"In the July issue of Kitplanes, pg 5, Lisa Jones from Tyco electronics
> >categorically states that the Polyswitch polyfuses "are not tested
for, nor
> >will they be tested for true FAA approvals" and also says "We believe
that
> >your article may lead the reader to believe that Polyswitch
resettable
> >fuses are appropriate for use in the application you discuss, and we
do not
> >recommend our products for this use. Please do not encourage your
readers
> >to use our products believing the information in the article is
accurate or
> >that we are working toward FAA approvals." "
Bob is correct on manufacturers of certificated aircraft do use and
include these products in their aircraft. The FAA approves the
aircraft's type design but the OEM (Cessna, Beech etc) assume the
liability. Lisa is correct about securing FAA approval in that her
company could request a PMA (Parts Manufacturer Approval) from the FAA.
Lisa is also correct in voicing her company's legal position. Very few
companies are willing to throw their resources into today's frivolous
suit happy environment. It is our legal system stymying modernization of
our industry.The FAA, OEMs, A&P's and IA's are only reacting to the high
cost of protecting their livlyhoods from the legal aggressors.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery suggestions |
>
>Hello Aeroelectric list,
>
>I am researching to buy a battery for my Pulsar project. I have the 3300 cc
>Jabiru 6 cylinder engine. Jabiru recommends a 20ah battery. I found that Digikey
>offers a 20ah panasonic SLA for $47. B&C has a 20ah for $124. I can't tell that
>the panasonic is any worse than the B&C. Anyone have any recommendations?
>
>Thanks,
>Ned
Probably 90% of the airplanes flying and under construction
can make good use of the 17-20 a.h. devices in the 3 x 6 x 6.5
inch format. LOTS of manufacturers build batteries in this
form factor and a.h. range for reasonable prices. I would
not depart from this class of battery without strong
design and operation goals dictating the change. These
batteries are excellent value and performance. I'd go with
the Panasonic/Powersonic/Yuasa/etc.etc.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyswitch polyfuses |
>
>> First, the FAA doesn't "approve" any particular part
>> for use on aircraft. An aircraft manufacturer can propose
>> to use ANY part it chooses in it's basic design and the
>> FAA will then approve the design. There are no doubt
>> many Polyfuse type products in service inside appliances
>> that are approved . . . automotive ATC style fuses can
>> be found in some of the new Cessnas too . . .
>
>I wonder why the Tyco representative got it wrong. Especially to come out
>and deny their part for use like that. Most companies welcome new uses for
>their product.
How many people do you know that really UNDERSTANDS how
government agencies work? Most companies would very much
like to cater to any customer that can make good use
of their product . . . but when faced with a predatory
Trial Lawyers Assn looking to retire on their next "win"
-AND- you work for a company with deep pockets, you
use other than trash barrel lids or paper weights. The
easiest thing to do is "prohibit" your products use
in certain venues . . . of course it may find its
way into any product through open market distribution.
Some corporate lawyers find solace in being able to claim
that their product was, "used in a manner contrary to
corporate policy."
>> At Raytheon, I'm aware of at least three different attempts
>> over the past 20 years to consider polyfuses for inclusion
>> into our designs . . . to date, I'm aware of no takers
>> on any of RAC/Beechcraft products. That doesn't mean that the
>> polyfuse doesn't work as the
>> data says it's supposed to. Decisions for NOT using them
>> have to include performance, installation ease, reliability,
>> cost/performance as compared to alternatives, maintainability,
>> customer acceptance, etc, etc. Enthusiastic supporters of
>> the polyfuse as replacement for breakers and fuses have
>> concentrated on specifications only and brushed aside or
>> ignored all the details that boil down to "total cost of
>> ownership and is it worth it for the perceived performance?".
>
>I still can't quite agree with that, though. If you are going to have a pc
>board power controller, fuses are much clumsier to use than polyfuses and
>this very much includes "total cost of ownership and is it worth it for the
>perceived performance? For many of the considerations listed above, I
>think (according to the companies' published specs) polyfuses gets the
>nod. I couldn't easily find any firm reliability numbers on the ATC
>fuse/fuse block combo, though, I would like to - its not in the
>Aeroelectric Connection) . . .
and it never will be. Published "reliability" numbers
are by-and-large a pap for those who would try to put
order into our lives by regulatory decree. Most people
who wield these numbers to drive your design decisions
have no knowledge of how your system works or how
your customer should be educated to use it. If you
design for failure tolerance and use parts with
a wide range of choices for features, then your
system is free to evolved as you see fit without
hazard to your health and welfare.
>I think a pc board controller could make sense - I
>can't say I'm wild about the idea of an ov module(a pc board itself)
>hanging out there on a skyhook, for one.
Why? What is the failure mode for a 5 gm device tied into
a wire bundle with string or a tye-wrap?
> . . . . I am trying add a consideration,
>not ignore some - perhaps not so relevant to commercial aircraft with its
>AP brotherhood, but adding the consideration of maintainability to the list
>of factors for owner built and maintained aircraft is important, I think.
>
>However, I am not going to use a part when a company spokesperson has
>stated its a bad idea, even if she apparently doesn't understand the
>approval process. Should some spokesperson for fuse companies come out and
>state they are not recommended for aircraft use, I guess I won't use them
>either, even if they are hidden inside a Cessna. I just wish I knew why
>they say what they say. Is it really just that there is not enough sales
>volume to justify the liability?
How does the PCB controller give you and edge over
the fuseblock/switch combo? You have to design and
fabricate the device which now becomes unique to your
aircraft. Repair and/or refurbishment parts are no
longer off-the-shelf devices available from multiple
sources and exchanged with ordinary hand tools.
I've done some PCB controllers for clients
with ATC fuses that plug onto the board with off-the-shelf
sockets. Fuses don't hide latent or transient failures.
The FIRST time the line is overloaded for a few tens
of milliseconds, the fuse opens and the system shuts
down. This is the best clue that something begs my
attention.
I wouldn't take ANY manufacture's word for suitability
(or unsuitability) of his device for my intended design.
Bottom line it is that your or my design decisions
need to be accomplished with UNDERSTANDING of
the task in terms of design, operation, maintenance
and tolerance to failure. Nobody in his right mind
would "recommend" that you use his product in any
perceived high-risk environment. All he should say
is, "here's a gizmo and here's what it does and
here's what it costs." It's up to me to apply
the part in a learned, responsible manner that meets
the needs of my customer.
>That's why I am going with many of your ideas, even though I might disagree
>with the argumentation from time to time. Most of what I see I do really
>appreciate and will use.
Thank you!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator fail light on Bellanca |
>
>Once again, I find myself turning to the "amateur" gorup for infomation none
>of the "certicicated" people seem to have! Glad I found this list!
>
>One of the Bellanca group guys posted this
>
>
><<<< Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:56:55 EDT
> From: CRQVikingPilot(at)aol.com
>Subject: Relay
>
>Hey has anyone been able to find the 6V relay that senses the alternator has
>failed and illuminates the warning light? My 1971 SV has a malfunctioning
>one that keeps the light on all the time the engine is running. My mechanic
>called Bellanca and they are not returning calls and Millers said it isn't
>available>>>>
>
>
>Anyone know the answer?
>
>C'mon guys..make me look good here!
This sounds like an alternator failure sensing technique
used on many aircraft in the 70's and 80's. The sensing
device watches the "aux" terminal of a wye-wound alternator
which normally runs at about half bus voltage when
the system was operating normally. Cars used this terminal
to drive a field excitation relay such that the field was
automatically shut down if the alternator is not spinning.
There are some solid state alternatives to relays . . .
I used to supply various two-transistor modules to
Cessna and Beech for this purpose. 6V relays are getting
VERY hard to find. 6V was a common automotive and consumer
electronics voltage level 30+ years ago. The most common low
voltage relay now has a 5V rating . . . some those might
work. If it were MY airplane, I'd ditch the aux terminal
sensor and replace it with a low volts warning light
set for 13.0 volts. OR - if you can send me a copy of the
wiring for the alternator failure light, I can sketch
out an easy to build, solid state replacement for the
relay.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: switch configuration |
>
>Bob
>
>How would I wire a situation where I want 4 items to have separate
>breakers, but I would like 1 switch to turn them all on/off? They
>have different breaker requirements.
>
>Jim
Are you sure you want all four systems to be vulnerable to
failure of a single switch? There are 4-pole devices available
that are about twice the width of a 2-pole. Kinda expensive.
My supplier for the low cost switches doesn't show a 4-pole.
I'll dig around some more and see what I can find. 4-pole
devices from Microswitch are stocked catalog items with Newark
and Allied . . . plan on paying about $40.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Tygo Electric's Polyfuse |
>
> suit happy environment. It is our legal system stymying modernization of
> our industry.The FAA, OEMs, A&P's and IA's are only reacting to the high
> cost of protecting their livlyhoods from the legal aggressors.
>
*** Amen. Let's talk "high costs". My IA pays $9000/year in liability
insurance! In fact, his insurance just came due, and he was making noises
about getting out of the business. I hauled ass and installed my GNS430
quick while he was still around.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery suggestions |
In a message dated 6/13/01 6:54:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
<< Probably 90% of the airplanes flying and under construction can make good
use of the 17-20 a.h. devices in the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch format. LOTS of
manufacturers build batteries in this form factor and a.h. range for
reasonable prices. I would not depart from this class of battery without
strong design and operation goals dictating the change. These batteries are
excellent value and performance. I'd go with the
Panasonic/Powersonic/Yuasa/etc.etc. >>
Bob: Just to make sure I understand your answer above, are you saying that
the relatively inexpensive batteries made by Panasonic, etc., (compared to
the Odyssey)
will have adequate cranking capacity for, say, an 0-360?
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, finish kit stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Bell" <rv4bell(at)door.net> |
Good Afternoon Bob,
On your 403mc Audio System the white wire from the pilots PTT button is
connected to the pin on the pilots mic plug. I have pre-wired most on my
components and it would be convenient for me,on my installation, to connect
the white wire and the red wire to pin 7 on the 403mc. Not wire the white
wire from the PTT directly to the mic plug.
Best regards,
Bruce Bell
Lubbock, Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery suggestions |
>
>In a message dated 6/13/01 6:54:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
>
><< Probably 90% of the airplanes flying and under construction can make good
>use of the 17-20 a.h. devices in the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch format. LOTS of
>manufacturers build batteries in this form factor and a.h. range for
>reasonable prices. I would not depart from this class of battery without
>strong design and operation goals dictating the change. These batteries are
>excellent value and performance. I'd go with the
>Panasonic/Powersonic/Yuasa/etc.etc. >>
>
>Bob: Just to make sure I understand your answer above, are you saying that
>the relatively inexpensive batteries made by Panasonic, etc., (compared to
>the Odyssey)
>will have adequate cranking capacity for, say, an 0-360?
You betcha. There are some VERY small batteries that
will crank an engine. The BIG issue is service life
and since we're going to make SURE we have enough stored
capacity on board to be really useful, we'll either
check the battery capacity every 6 months or simply
replace the battery every annual. This philosophy lets
us launch into the grey with great confidence irreseptive
of how much money we spent on the battery.
I'd much rather put a $50 battery in every year than
try to keep close tabs on a more expensive product.
My time is worth more than that.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: switch configuration |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >How would I wire a situation where I want 4 items to have separate
> >breakers, but I would like 1 switch to turn them all on/off? They
> >have different breaker requirements.
> >
> >Jim
> Are you sure you want all four systems to be vulnerable to
> failure of a single switch? There are 4-pole devices available
> that are about twice the width of a 2-pole. Kinda expensive.
> My supplier for the low cost switches doesn't show a 4-pole.
> I'll dig around some more and see what I can find. 4-pole
> devices from Microswitch are stocked catalog items with Newark
> and Allied . . . plan on paying about $40.
>
> Bob . . .
why not just wire the fuses after the single pole switch?
B+ > (fuse to protect wire to switch, if desired) >
switch > fuse
fuse
fuse
fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyswitch polyfuses |
>
> You have to design and
> fabricate the device which now becomes unique to your
> aircraft.
I'm doing that in just about 80% of my plane- at least that much fab, and
maybe a little design - I'm building a homebuilt, not repairing a 172.
> Repair and/or refurbishment parts are no
> longer off-the-shelf devices available from multiple
> sources and exchanged with ordinary hand tools.
This is an argument often used to kill innovation. It is really just an
argument for convenience, isn't it? - if I can fabricate the part myself
(and have control over the quality and performance to boot) why is that
bad? If I want to take on the design process myself, I will take on the
process of maintenance as well.
> I've done some PCB controllers for clients
> with ATC fuses that plug onto the board with off-the-shelf
> sockets.
I would have thought that the sockets only introduced another contact to go
bad. I know IC sockets are frowned on for that reason. One of the reasons
that polyfuses looked good. Was pulling the fuse a requirement?
> Fuses don't hide latent or transient failures.
It hasn't been demonstrated that polyfuses do, either. You do state that
polyfuses work as represented, but then this kind of statement confuses me.
> I wouldn't take ANY manufacture's word for suitability
> (or unsuitability) of his device for my intended design.
I still bow to your experience, but why ignore the manufacturers input? In
the medical electronics world, where there is arguably more at stake (more
lives, more money, *much* more litigation, etc.) manufacturers do provide
data, and designers need them to stand behind their product.
> Bottom line it is that your or my design decisions
> need to be accomplished with UNDERSTANDING of
> the task in terms of design, operation, maintenance
> and tolerance to failure.
We agree on this, and it was never challenged. My previous message was
wishing that the polyfuse representative had made clear why they did not
recommend them for aircraft use - I was trying to understand their
reasoning. Until they do, neither you or I understand their reasons for
doing so, which is unfortunate.
>Nobody in his right mind
> would "recommend" that you use his product in any
> perceived high-risk environment.
I am surprised at this. Most of the medical equipment manufacturers get
regulatory approval and do actively recommend their products in a high risk
environment, like their intended use in surgical procedures or life
support. Pharmaceutical companies recommend their drugs in a high risk
environment, and get regulatory approval. They do this because no doctor
in his right mind would use a product when the manufacturer actively denies
its use for that purpose. (Actually, this has happened when a drug has a
"side effect" that turns out to be beneficial, but the doctor gets in
trouble for prescribing it until the drug is approved for that use.)
I do understand an executive decision on the part of a company not to go
into a particular market segment because the risk/reward ration was too
large, and if that is all the announcement was, fine.
I am new to the aviation field (well, I did work for McDonnell Douglas in
the early seventies, toggling in boot sequences on a PDP-8!) and therefore
bow to your experience, but how did the cart get turned around before the
horse where aircraft designers use products their supplier won't stand
behind? Was it divorce attorneys that created the adversarial relationship
you are describing between supplier and product builder?
> All he should say
> is, "here's a gizmo and here's what it does and
> here's what it costs." It's up to me to apply
> the part in a learned, responsible manner that meets
> the needs of my customer.
I'm not sure that is all that should be said, but in this case (s)he *is*
saying "we don't stand behind your decision to use this part in your
design" and she is not telling you why.
I don't mean to be so argumentative - I am sure we are past the dead horse
stage, but I do not understand some of the things that are said, but I am
trying.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>
>> You have to design and
>> fabricate the device which now becomes unique to your
>> aircraft.
>
>I'm doing that in just about 80% of my plane- at least that much fab, and
>maybe a little design - I'm building a homebuilt, not repairing a 172.
Understand . . . and that's great if it's something you want
to do and invest the time and energy on. I've had a number
of builders over the years who have invested a lot of resources
on their projects over and above that needed for a
no-sweat, easily maintained aircraft.
>> Repair and/or refurbishment parts are no
>> longer off-the-shelf devices available from multiple
>> sources and exchanged with ordinary hand tools.
>
>This is an argument often used to kill innovation. It is really just an
>argument for convenience, isn't it? - if I can fabricate the part myself
>(and have control over the quality and performance to boot) why is that
>bad? If I want to take on the design process myself, I will take on the
>process of maintenance as well.
Again, more power to you sir and my best wishes for your
enjoyment of both the task and the result. A goal for
my readers is to help sort out the many innovations
in search of those with (for lack of a better phrase)
market potential. I've seen lots of one-of-a-kind
aircraft at OSH and other shows that are a marvel to
behold and a credit to the designer/builder's ingenuity
and patience. But many will always be one-of-a-kind
because the return on investment for 99% of the builders
just isn't there.
We work in a market where gadgetry and hype surrounding
it is easy to confuse with viable product. The majority
of folk reading this list don't make a living at
this stuff. If I'm going to recommend that someone
go out and spend hours/dollars to do a task, I have
to weigh that advice against the need to build as
reliable a flight system as possible in the minimum
time and expense.
>> I've done some PCB controllers for clients
>> with ATC fuses that plug onto the board with off-the-shelf
>> sockets.
>
>I would have thought that the sockets only introduced another contact to go
>bad. I know IC sockets are frowned on for that reason. One of the reasons
>that polyfuses looked good. Was pulling the fuse a requirement?
>
>> Fuses don't hide latent or transient failures.
>
>It hasn't been demonstrated that polyfuses do, either. You do state that
>polyfuses work as represented, but then this kind of statement confuses me.
An intermittent short or transient overload may go unnoticed for
a long time with any form of self resetting circuit
protection. Given that faults which cause circuit
protection to be invoked are very rare (got over 1500
hours and have had only one breaker trip that was
not designed into the airplane) the rational I've
adopted is that I'd rather have the fuse pop on the
first manifestation of the fault.
>> I wouldn't take ANY manufacture's word for suitability
>> (or unsuitability) of his device for my intended design.
>
>I still bow to your experience, but why ignore the manufacturers input? In
>the medical electronics world, where there is arguably more at stake (more
>lives, more money, *much* more litigation, etc.) manufacturers do provide
>data, and designers need them to stand behind their product.
I didn't say ignore their input, certainly they know
more about how their product performs than anyone.
But I've met very few gizmo peddlers that have ever
had to build and airplane, certify it, teach the
customer how to use it, teach the techs how to fix
it and ultimately stand up to catch the rocks and
bottles if some part of the system turns out to be
a dog. I depend on the manufacture to tell me exactly
how his gizmo works . . . whether or not it is suitable
for my task is my decision alone.
>>Nobody in his right mind
>> would "recommend" that you use his product in any
>> perceived high-risk environment.
>
>I am surprised at this. Most of the medical equipment manufacturers get
>regulatory approval and do actively recommend their products in a high risk
>environment, like their intended use in surgical procedures or life
>support. Pharmaceutical companies recommend their drugs in a high risk
>environment, and get regulatory approval. They do this because no doctor
>in his right mind would use a product when the manufacturer actively denies
>its use for that purpose. (Actually, this has happened when a drug has a
>"side effect" that turns out to be beneficial, but the doctor gets in
>trouble for prescribing it until the drug is approved for that use.)
>
>I do understand an executive decision on the part of a company not to go
>into a particular market segment because the risk/reward ration was too
>large, and if that is all the announcement was, fine.
Like railroads (self insured) many industries build litigation
and judgement expenses into the price of their products. When
you sell things like food and medicine, necessary things for
which there are no substitutes, the market has built in
protection from predatory litigation . . . The price simply
goes up and we pay it. For discretionary things like airplanes,
there are no protections . . . we'll never see 16,000 production
airplanes built in a single year again . . . because insurance
premiums on the 16,000th airplane in one year had to cover the
100,000 or so airplanes that preceded it. Unlike food and medicines
that are consumed on the spot, airplanes hung around for a
long time and built a staggering liability. The market was
doomed when they turned the lawyers loose. Why would anyone
in his right mind "recommend" a popular product for installation
on the fleet of about 130,000 aircraft? His fondest dream and
worst nightmare come hand in hand. You make a ton of money
for product going out the door but there are thousands of
lawyers who make a damned good living finding out who's
products were installed on the last airplane that crashed.
>I am new to the aviation field (well, I did work for McDonnell Douglas in
>the early seventies, toggling in boot sequences on a PDP-8!) and therefore
>bow to your experience, but how did the cart get turned around before the
>horse where aircraft designers use products their supplier won't stand
>behind? Was it divorce attorneys that created the adversarial relationship
>you are describing between supplier and product builder?
That's one good reason, the biggest was probably the
horrible notion that one can be properly "compensated"
for life's risks by taking lots of money from someone
who has the insurance willing to cover it. I suspect
insurance companies are as culpable as the lawyers.
>> All he should say
>> is, "here's a gizmo and here's what it does and
>> here's what it costs." It's up to me to apply
>> the part in a learned, responsible manner that meets
>> the needs of my customer.
>
>I'm not sure that is all that should be said, but in this case (s)he *is*
>saying "we don't stand behind your decision to use this part in your
>design" and she is not telling you why.
Keep in mind that owner built and maintained aircraft are
the least understood products in aviation. People
like Raychem are very familiar with the certified
aircraft risks . . . they grew up with them. Now,
here comes a bunch of yahoos hammering hang-gliders
on steroids together in their barns. "Good lord,"
says the CEO, "the last thing we need is a bunch
of amateurs sticking OUR prized products into THEIR
death traps."
The Wrights were amateurs of the most professional
kind. I'd like to believe that builders who take the time
to exchange information on this list are equally
professional. Until manufacturers like Raychem are willing
educate potential customers by participating at
this level of information exchange, my best
recommendation to them is to maintain some
corporate distance. In the mean time, it's
up to folks like you and I to identify the value
of any idea or product and help our brothers understand
how it may meet their personal goals for maximizing performance
with a minimum investment of time and cost of ownership.
>I don't mean to be so argumentative - I am sure we are past the dead horse
>stage, but I do not understand some of the things that are said, but I am
>trying.
Understand. No offense taken and I sincerely hope
none is felt. I believe our missions are ultimately
the same. I've suggested that the finest airplanes
to have ever flown are being built in people's
basements and garages. The exchange of ideas
and filtering them through years of experience
and good critical review can only make the product
better.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Muzzy Norman E" <MuzzyNormanE(at)johndeere.com> |
<< Probably 90% of the airplanes flying and under construction can make
good
use of the 17-20 a.h. devices in the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch format. LOTS of
manufacturers build batteries in this form factor and a.h. range for
reasonable prices. I would not depart from this class of battery without
strong design and operation goals dictating the change. These batteries are
excellent value and performance. I'd go with the
Panasonic/Powersonic/Yuasa/etc.etc. >>
Bob: Just to make sure I understand your answer above, are you saying
that
the relatively inexpensive batteries made by Panasonic, etc., (compared to
the Odyssey)
will have adequate cranking capacity for, say, an 0-360? >>>
<< You betcha. There are some VERY small batteries that
will crank an engine. The BIG issue is >>
There are many batteries that are this exact form factor. There are also
considerable differences between their ability to output sufficient current.
If you are looking for a cheap battery that size, buy one from the surplus
sites such as www.meci.com part number 140-0094 for $19.95! Exact same
size as the battery that B&C sells, but I can tell you that the cranking
performance on these is roughly proportional to the battery cost. So maybe
use a cheap one to hold space and power your accessories while you are
building, and then buy a real battery for flying.
(I have used these batteries in some robots. I couldn't get the performance
that I needed, so I put in a pair of the B&C batteries. The difference was
amazing. The cheap batteries cannot deliver the current like the good
batteries. So the trick is to figure out which are good and which are not.)
Regards-
Norm Muzzy
Cozy MKIV filling and finishing!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
>So the trick is to figure out which are good and which are not.)
The last time I tested one, the Panasonic did pretty well.
David Swartzendruber
not building yet
Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PTT Connection |
>
>Good Afternoon Bob,
>On your 403mc Audio System the white wire from the pilots PTT button is
>connected to the pin on the pilots mic plug. I have pre-wired most on my
>components and it would be convenient for me,on my installation, to connect
>the white wire and the red wire to pin 7 on the 403mc. Not wire the white
>wire from the PTT directly to the mic plug.
>Best regards,
>Bruce Bell
>Lubbock, Texas
That would certainly work. The consideration for
wiring to the d-sub is that two wires need to go to
the same place. Splice them together with solder
a few inches outside the plug's backshell and take
a single lead into the connector's pin.
The reason I recommend the system show is because it's
easy to attach multiple wires to the jacks.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>>So the trick is to figure out which are good and which are not.)
>
>The last time I tested one, the Panasonic did pretty well.
>
>David Swartzendruber
>not building yet
>Wichita
This brings up an interesting data point about
changing out the battery every annual . . . .
even batteries that are a tad short on longevity,
will still perform satisfactorily for a year.
The test that B&C runs on new batteries is to
put an ADJUSTABLE load tester on it and crank up
the amps until the meter dips to 8.5 volts.
The load required to do this should be no less
than 300A and it shouldn't drop below 200A
in less than 20-30 seconds.
Some batteries are so-so (300-400A) and others
are stellar (600+ amps). This is one advantage
of purchasing from a Battery Mart type storefront.
They're almost sure to have a tester on hand to
demonstrate the capability of their offering.
Now, this says NOTHING about longevity. It's
conceivable that a new battery could come out
of the gate breathing fire and fall on it's
face in half the time of its nearest competitor.
This is another beauty of the new-battery-a-year
philosophy . . . some pretty soggy products may
do quite well for that period of time.
If anyone on the list has experience (good or
bad) with a particular brand . . . publish it
here. I've seen some portable "jumper battery"
products in the stores for as little as $39!!!!
I've purchased several of these to tear down
and see what battery was inside. All have
contained the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch SLA battery.
Why so inexpensive? Consumer product sales
outnumber techno-specific products by an order
of magnitude or better. Just because it's
inexpensive doesn't mean it shouldn't be
considered. Try 'em out folks and tell us
about it here . . . The risks are minimal
and the value of good data on field service
is VERY high . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <nthomas(at)mmcable.com> |
I've run into the problem of not having a consistent method of comparing batteries
performance. The panasonic engineer says he would probably not recommend his battery
because it is less suited to higher temps as one would encounter under the hood
of an auto
or airplane. Panasonic does not give a CCA rating. He did say that the battery
is used
on some lawn tracters. Hawker gives CCA rating but doesn't have a 20ah battery
in this ~
7 x 3 x 6 dimension. Theirs is only a 16ah. Their "spiral" design makes it have
less
lead so its lighter but has less capacity. Odyssey gives CCA and is expensive like
B&C ~
$120 and is only 16ah.
I've also learned that the CCA is not always specified at the same temp. Nor is
the ah
rating given the same way.
Is it kind of like buying a tire for a car? Every tire manufacture rates the traction
of
the tire. It is my understanding that the traction rating designation is agreed
to across
the tire industry but the method of measuring is different so that the consumer
is not
really comparing apples with apples.......
If this is so, then I conclude it may very well be worth paying a"premium" for
the battery
from B&C because they have the "reputation" of testing the various products and
selecting
the "optimum".......at least, so goes my logic.
I guess it boils down to trust??? What do you all think?
Muzzy Norman E wrote:
>
> << Probably 90% of the airplanes flying and under construction can make
> good
> use of the 17-20 a.h. devices in the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch format. LOTS of
> manufacturers build batteries in this form factor and a.h. range for
> reasonable prices. I would not depart from this class of battery without
> strong design and operation goals dictating the change. These batteries are
> excellent value and performance. I'd go with the
> Panasonic/Powersonic/Yuasa/etc.etc. >>
>
> Bob: Just to make sure I understand your answer above, are you saying
> that
> the relatively inexpensive batteries made by Panasonic, etc., (compared to
> the Odyssey)
> will have adequate cranking capacity for, say, an 0-360? >>>
>
> << You betcha. There are some VERY small batteries that
> will crank an engine. The BIG issue is >>
>
> There are many batteries that are this exact form factor. There are also
> considerable differences between their ability to output sufficient current.
> If you are looking for a cheap battery that size, buy one from the surplus
> sites such as www.meci.com part number 140-0094 for $19.95! Exact same
> size as the battery that B&C sells, but I can tell you that the cranking
> performance on these is roughly proportional to the battery cost. So maybe
> use a cheap one to hold space and power your accessories while you are
> building, and then buy a real battery for flying.
>
> (I have used these batteries in some robots. I couldn't get the performance
> that I needed, so I put in a pair of the B&C batteries. The difference was
> amazing. The cheap batteries cannot deliver the current like the good
> batteries. So the trick is to figure out which are good and which are not.)
>
> Regards-
> Norm Muzzy
> Cozy MKIV filling and finishing!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <nthomas(at)mmcable.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Batteries |
Dear List,
For any who are inerested, I have attached a Word file containing the batteries
that I got
information on.
Ned
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >>So the trick is to figure out which are good and which are not.)
> >
> >The last time I tested one, the Panasonic did pretty well.
> >
> >David Swartzendruber
> >not building yet
> >Wichita
>
> This brings up an interesting data point about
> changing out the battery every annual . . . .
> even batteries that are a tad short on longevity,
> will still perform satisfactorily for a year.
>
> The test that B&C runs on new batteries is to
> put an ADJUSTABLE load tester on it and crank up
> the amps until the meter dips to 8.5 volts.
> The load required to do this should be no less
> than 300A and it shouldn't drop below 200A
> in less than 20-30 seconds.
>
> Some batteries are so-so (300-400A) and others
> are stellar (600+ amps). This is one advantage
> of purchasing from a Battery Mart type storefront.
> They're almost sure to have a tester on hand to
> demonstrate the capability of their offering.
>
> Now, this says NOTHING about longevity. It's
> conceivable that a new battery could come out
> of the gate breathing fire and fall on it's
> face in half the time of its nearest competitor.
> This is another beauty of the new-battery-a-year
> philosophy . . . some pretty soggy products may
> do quite well for that period of time.
>
> If anyone on the list has experience (good or
> bad) with a particular brand . . . publish it
> here. I've seen some portable "jumper battery"
> products in the stores for as little as $39!!!!
> I've purchased several of these to tear down
> and see what battery was inside. All have
> contained the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch SLA battery.
> Why so inexpensive? Consumer product sales
> outnumber techno-specific products by an order
> of magnitude or better. Just because it's
> inexpensive doesn't mean it shouldn't be
> considered. Try 'em out folks and tell us
> about it here . . . The risks are minimal
> and the value of good data on field service
> is VERY high . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <nthomas(at)mmcable.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Batteries |
Dear List,
For any who are inerested, I have attached a Word file containing the
batteries that I got information on.
It is interesting to see the comparisons of $ per pound and amp-hour per pound.
The Powersonic and the Panasonic put out the highest AH per pound and cost the
least per pound.
Ned
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >>So the trick is to figure out which are good and which are not.)
> >
> >The last time I tested one, the Panasonic did pretty well.
> >
> >David Swartzendruber
> >not building yet
> >Wichita
>
> This brings up an interesting data point about
> changing out the battery every annual . . . .
> even batteries that are a tad short on longevity,
> will still perform satisfactorily for a year.
>
> The test that B&C runs on new batteries is to
> put an ADJUSTABLE load tester on it and crank up
> the amps until the meter dips to 8.5 volts.
> The load required to do this should be no less
> than 300A and it shouldn't drop below 200A
> in less than 20-30 seconds.
>
> Some batteries are so-so (300-400A) and others
> are stellar (600+ amps). This is one advantage
> of purchasing from a Battery Mart type storefront.
> They're almost sure to have a tester on hand to
> demonstrate the capability of their offering.
>
> Now, this says NOTHING about longevity. It's
> conceivable that a new battery could come out
> of the gate breathing fire and fall on it's
> face in half the time of its nearest competitor.
> This is another beauty of the new-battery-a-year
> philosophy . . . some pretty soggy products may
> do quite well for that period of time.
>
> If anyone on the list has experience (good or
> bad) with a particular brand . . . publish it
> here. I've seen some portable "jumper battery"
> products in the stores for as little as $39!!!!
> I've purchased several of these to tear down
> and see what battery was inside. All have
> contained the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch SLA battery.
> Why so inexpensive? Consumer product sales
> outnumber techno-specific products by an order
> of magnitude or better. Just because it's
> inexpensive doesn't mean it shouldn't be
> considered. Try 'em out folks and tell us
> about it here . . . The risks are minimal
> and the value of good data on field service
> is VERY high . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Legal problems in aviation |
>Now,here comes a bunch of yahoos hammering hang-gliders
> on steroids together in their barns.
Now, that's ridiculous! I don't own a barn. :
)
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <nthomas(at)mmcable.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Batteries |
Manufacture AH wgt Length Width Height CCA
Price AH / wgt $ /
wgt
B&C BC120-1 20 15.3 6.94 3.43 6.05 300
$124
1.31 8.10
Hawker G16EP 16 13.5 7.15 3.005 6.605 285
$63
1.19 4.67
Odyssey PC680 16 14.7 7.27 3.12 6.67 280
$120
1.09 8.16
Panasonic X1220P 20 14.56 7.126 2.933 6.57
$47
1.37 3.23
Powersonic PS12180 18 13.1 7.13 2.99 6.57
$52
1.37 3.97
YUASA NP18-12 18 13.64 7.13 2.99 6.57
$60
1.32 4.40
Ned Thomas wrote:
>
> Dear List,
>
> For any who are inerested, I have attached a Word file containing the batteries
that I got
> information on.
>
> Ned
>
> "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > >>So the trick is to figure out which are good and which are not.)
> > >
> > >The last time I tested one, the Panasonic did pretty well.
> > >
> > >David Swartzendruber
> > >not building yet
> > >Wichita
> >
> > This brings up an interesting data point about
> > changing out the battery every annual . . . .
> > even batteries that are a tad short on longevity,
> > will still perform satisfactorily for a year.
> >
> > The test that B&C runs on new batteries is to
> > put an ADJUSTABLE load tester on it and crank up
> > the amps until the meter dips to 8.5 volts.
> > The load required to do this should be no less
> > than 300A and it shouldn't drop below 200A
> > in less than 20-30 seconds.
> >
> > Some batteries are so-so (300-400A) and others
> > are stellar (600+ amps). This is one advantage
> > of purchasing from a Battery Mart type storefront.
> > They're almost sure to have a tester on hand to
> > demonstrate the capability of their offering.
> >
> > Now, this says NOTHING about longevity. It's
> > conceivable that a new battery could come out
> > of the gate breathing fire and fall on it's
> > face in half the time of its nearest competitor.
> > This is another beauty of the new-battery-a-year
> > philosophy . . . some pretty soggy products may
> > do quite well for that period of time.
> >
> > If anyone on the list has experience (good or
> > bad) with a particular brand . . . publish it
> > here. I've seen some portable "jumper battery"
> > products in the stores for as little as $39!!!!
> > I've purchased several of these to tear down
> > and see what battery was inside. All have
> > contained the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch SLA battery.
> > Why so inexpensive? Consumer product sales
> > outnumber techno-specific products by an order
> > of magnitude or better. Just because it's
> > inexpensive doesn't mean it shouldn't be
> > considered. Try 'em out folks and tell us
> > about it here . . . The risks are minimal
> > and the value of good data on field service
> > is VERY high . . .
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Batteries |
Ned,
If you attached a file to your message the only place it's going is back to
you. Try this link to post it. We'd all love to see what you've come up
with.
http://www.matronics.com/enclosures.html
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Plainfield, IL
RV6 N699BM (res) Building Flaps
Stinson 108-2 N9666K
> Dear List,
>
> For any who are inerested, I have attached a Word file containing the
> batteries that I got information on.
>
> It is interesting to see the comparisons of $ per pound and amp-hour per
pound.
>
> The Powersonic and the Panasonic put out the highest AH per pound and cost
the least per pound.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Batteries |
>
>Dear List,
>
>For any who are inerested, I have attached a Word file containing the
>batteries that I got information on.
I would like to see your file, but the list doesn't distribute
attachments. Is there a website you can put it up?
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu> |
Reply to: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries
Have you checked into the WestCo line of batteries? They are maintenance
free "gell" batteries. They came out on top in a recent GoldWing
motorcycle magazine battery test. I think they would be worth a look.
Their url is: https://www.westcobattery.com/tech_info.html
>If this is so, then I conclude it may very well be worth paying
a"premium"
>for the battery
>from B&C because they have the "reputation" of testing the various
products
>and selecting
>the "optimum".......at least, so goes my logic.
>
>I guess it boils down to trust??? What do you all think?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Legal problems in aviation |
I'm building my Europa in a chicken shed.... does that count?
Miles
>
> >Now,here comes a bunch of yahoos hammering hang-gliders
> > on steroids together in their barns.
>
> Now, that's ridiculous! I don't own a barn. :
)
>
> Gary Liming
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Chipley" <craigchipley(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Legal problems in aviation |
Can anyone Give a review of different handheld Comms?
>From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Legal problems in aviation
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:51:41 -0700
>
>
> >Now,here comes a bunch of yahoos hammering hang-gliders
> > on steroids together in their barns.
>
>Now, that's ridiculous! I don't own a barn. :
)
>
>Gary Liming
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Can anyone Give a review of different handheld Comms?
>
I've seen several but so long ago that I don't recall
where. I'd check the archives of Avweb, Aviation Consumer
and an e-mail to the various aviation journals may turn
up some articles.
I have Japan Radio VHF Comm/VOR hand held that I'll get
to play with for the first time tomorrow. Dee and I are
off to Rockford, IL in the morning in a rented C-172.
No matter what hand-held you end up with, plan on a means
for connecting it to one of ship's regular comm antennas.
The receiver technology in most hand helds is about as good
as the panel mounted stuff . . . but NO radio plays back
signals it can't hear . . . a decent antenna is a must.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
Hey Ned, nice piece of work. How about setting it up in Access or
Excel and sending a copy to me directly. I'll post it on my website.
Folks can download it, update it and then mail it back to me and
I update the post. It might be a nice way to put a shared database
together. Put a column at the far right for notes. As people have
feedback on any item listed in the data base, we'll key it to
a number in the notes column and post that too.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
>
>
> No matter what hand-held you end up with, plan on a means
> for connecting it to one of ship's regular comm antennas.
*** Can you recommend the King handheld connection box? This is a small
shielded box with a pair of BNC's at the back, and an ordinary miniature
phone jack at the front. One BNC goes to your panel-mounted COM
transceiver, the other goes to the antenna. When you plug King's special
cord into the phone jack, it disconnects the panel com and connects your
handheld.
Questions:
* Is the mini phone jack reliable enough? I would mostly worry about it
going intermittant, in which case my panel COM could lose antenna.
I really doubt that it is something super-duper.
* Mini phone jacks are not an RF connector, and even though the box
is shielded, some leakage will occur. Is this a problem?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>I've run into the problem of not having a consistent method of comparing batteries
>performance. The panasonic engineer says he would probably not recommend his
battery
>because it is less suited to higher temps as one would encounter under the hood
of an auto
>or airplane.
Here's where the rubber hits the road on comments I made
earlier about "manufacturer's judgement as to suitability" . . .
How long does an airplane battery spend "hot" as compared
to cars . . . A car can run hot several hours a day, an average
airplane is 4 hours a MONTH. The guy probably doesn't even
KNOW that folks are using his product very successfully
in their airplanes.
> Panasonic does not give a CCA rating. He did say that the battery is used
>on some lawn tracters. Hawker gives CCA rating but doesn't have a 20ah battery
in this ~
>7 x 3 x 6 dimension. Theirs is only a 16ah. Their "spiral" design makes it have
less
>lead so its lighter but has less capacity.
But the jelly roll cell has a much lower internal resistance
which raises it ability to crank an engine compared to other
batteries its size.
>Odyssey gives CCA and is expensive like B&C ` $120 and is only 16ah.
>
>I've also learned that the CCA is not always specified at the same temp. Nor is
the ah
>rating given the same way.
Yup . . . so the "experts" who offer them cannot even make
learned comparisons between their own product and their
competitors . . . and nobody bothers to do real laboratory
grade data gathering in such matters. . . .
>Is it kind of like buying a tire for a car? Every tire manufacture rates the
traction of
>the tire. It is my understanding that the traction rating designation is agreed
to across
>the tire industry but the method of measuring is different so that the consumer
is not
>really comparing apples with apples.......
>
>If this is so, then I conclude it may very well be worth paying a"premium" for
the battery
>from B&C because they have the "reputation" of testing the various products and
selecting
>the "optimum".......at least, so goes my logic.
B&C has not tested any battery for longevity . . only initial
cranking performance when new. They've sold a number of models
to LOTS of customers over the years. The reason they continue
to SELL any particular battery is because folks ask for them.
Many, many customers are buying their 3rd or 4th battery from
B&C . . . from which I would infer that they consider the
battery's performance to be of good value.
>I guess it boils down to trust??? What do you all think?
You're making this MUCH too difficult. Why not spend the
time finishing some tedious task on your airplane instead
of talking to people on the phone that have NO first hand
experience and very little second hand data on how well
their product will work for you.
Buy the lightest and cheapest battery you can find and
give it a try. It will certainly crank your engine when
new. By the time it is down in capacity to the point where
you need to change it out, then you can decide if it was
a good value. If it was cheap, then you don't stand to
loose much on a poor choice.
We're building failure tolerant airplanes. The best reason
for "upgrading" a part is because you're tired of changing
out parts that you perceive to be poor value. Start out at
the bottom, work your way up and save a lot of frustration.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM" <Kearns(at)pol.net> |
I think somewhere it is recommended batteries provide 30 minutes of
power to the system should the alternator fail. Is this true?
Ned Thomas wrote:
>
>
> I've run into the problem of not having a consistent method of comparing batteries
> performance. The panasonic engineer says he would probably not recommend his
battery
> because it is less suited to higher temps as one would encounter under the hood
of an auto
> or airplane. Panasonic does not give a CCA rating. He did say that the battery
is used
> on some lawn tracters. Hawker gives CCA rating but doesn't have a 20ah battery
in this ~
> 7 x 3 x 6 dimension. Theirs is only a 16ah. Their "spiral" design makes it
have less
> lead so its lighter but has less capacity. Odyssey gives CCA and is expensive
like B&C ~
> $120 and is only 16ah.
>
> I've also learned that the CCA is not always specified at the same temp. Nor
is the ah
> rating given the same way.
>
> Is it kind of like buying a tire for a car? Every tire manufacture rates the
traction of
> the tire. It is my understanding that the traction rating designation is agreed
to across
> the tire industry but the method of measuring is different so that the consumer
is not
> really comparing apples with apples.......
>
> If this is so, then I conclude it may very well be worth paying a"premium" for
the battery
> from B&C because they have the "reputation" of testing the various products and
selecting
> the "optimum".......at least, so goes my logic.
>
> I guess it boils down to trust??? What do you all think?
>
> Muzzy Norman E wrote:
>
> >
> > << Probably 90% of the airplanes flying and under construction can make
> > good
> > use of the 17-20 a.h. devices in the 3 x 6 x 6.5 inch format. LOTS of
> > manufacturers build batteries in this form factor and a.h. range for
> > reasonable prices. I would not depart from this class of battery without
> > strong design and operation goals dictating the change. These batteries are
> > excellent value and performance. I'd go with the
> > Panasonic/Powersonic/Yuasa/etc.etc. >>
> >
> > Bob: Just to make sure I understand your answer above, are you saying
> > that
> > the relatively inexpensive batteries made by Panasonic, etc., (compared to
> > the Odyssey)
> > will have adequate cranking capacity for, say, an 0-360? >>>
> >
> > << You betcha. There are some VERY small batteries that
> > will crank an engine. The BIG issue is >>
> >
> > There are many batteries that are this exact form factor. There are also
> > considerable differences between their ability to output sufficient current.
> > If you are looking for a cheap battery that size, buy one from the surplus
> > sites such as www.meci.com part number 140-0094 for $19.95! Exact same
> > size as the battery that B&C sells, but I can tell you that the cranking
> > performance on these is roughly proportional to the battery cost. So maybe
> > use a cheap one to hold space and power your accessories while you are
> > building, and then buy a real battery for flying.
> >
> > (I have used these batteries in some robots. I couldn't get the performance
> > that I needed, so I put in a pair of the B&C batteries. The difference was
> > amazing. The cheap batteries cannot deliver the current like the good
> > batteries. So the trick is to figure out which are good and which are not.)
> >
> > Regards-
> > Norm Muzzy
> > Cozy MKIV filling and finishing!
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>I think somewhere it is recommended batteries provide 30 minutes of
>power to the system should the alternator fail. Is this true?
That's on a certified airplane . . . on owner built and
maintained airplanes, I recommend that your battery be able
to run the minimum goodies for continued flight to intended
destination with your only limitation being the gallons
of fuel you have aboard. Why would you want to design
a system that couldn't run as long as the engine is running
too?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <nthomas(at)mmcable.com> |
Dear list,
I made a decision and purchased the Hawker Genesis GV16EP today from AVT, Inc.,
Littleton, CO,
(800) 537-9602. They sell it for $55. I made this decision mainly based on the
following:
1) Comparing the Discharge characteristic plots of the Panasonic and Hawker.
My interpretation of the plots yielded that Panasonic held 60A for ~9 minutes while
Hawker held
60A for ~10 minutes.
2) Hawker was one of the lightest at 13.5 lbs. and least expensive. It also had
the lowest
internal resistance advertised at 7mOhms. Panasonic is 11 mOhms.
After I ordered the battery I got a recommendation to look over Westco batteries.
I may have
ordered their SVR20 instead of the Hawker. Maybe next year when I change out the
bat. It is 1.5
lbs heavier but advertises a 300 CCA. Its also $45 higher than the Hawker at $89.98.
I have been trying to follow matrionic directions to post my little table. Haven't
been able to
get it to work. It would be great for all to contribute to a historical feedback
data base on
their batteries. It wouldn't be long before we would cull out and find the best
bat in this size
if everyone could contribute their experiences.
I agree with Bob Nuckolls that all these batteries seem really close in performance
and that any
one of these later generation batteries will probably do a fine job. I decided
to buy the lesser
expensive battery and put the savings into a good regulator / charging voltage
controller.
Best of luck in making your battery selection,
Ned
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >I've run into the problem of not having a consistent method of comparing batteries
> >performance. The panasonic engineer says he would probably not recommend his
battery
> >because it is less suited to higher temps as one would encounter under the hood
of an auto
> >or airplane.
>
> Here's where the rubber hits the road on comments I made
> earlier about "manufacturer's judgement as to suitability" . . .
> How long does an airplane battery spend "hot" as compared
> to cars . . . A car can run hot several hours a day, an average
> airplane is 4 hours a MONTH. The guy probably doesn't even
> KNOW that folks are using his product very successfully
> in their airplanes.
>
> > Panasonic does not give a CCA rating. He did say that the battery is used
> >on some lawn tracters. Hawker gives CCA rating but doesn't have a 20ah battery
in this ~
> >7 x 3 x 6 dimension. Theirs is only a 16ah. Their "spiral" design makes it
have less
> >lead so its lighter but has less capacity.
>
> But the jelly roll cell has a much lower internal resistance
> which raises it ability to crank an engine compared to other
> batteries its size.
>
> >Odyssey gives CCA and is expensive like B&C ` $120 and is only 16ah.
> >
> >I've also learned that the CCA is not always specified at the same temp. Nor
is the ah
> >rating given the same way.
>
> Yup . . . so the "experts" who offer them cannot even make
> learned comparisons between their own product and their
> competitors . . . and nobody bothers to do real laboratory
> grade data gathering in such matters. . . .
>
> >Is it kind of like buying a tire for a car? Every tire manufacture rates the
traction of
> >the tire. It is my understanding that the traction rating designation is agreed
to across
> >the tire industry but the method of measuring is different so that the consumer
is not
> >really comparing apples with apples.......
> >
> >If this is so, then I conclude it may very well be worth paying a"premium" for
the battery
> >from B&C because they have the "reputation" of testing the various products
and selecting
> >the "optimum".......at least, so goes my logic.
>
> B&C has not tested any battery for longevity . . only initial
> cranking performance when new. They've sold a number of models
> to LOTS of customers over the years. The reason they continue
> to SELL any particular battery is because folks ask for them.
> Many, many customers are buying their 3rd or 4th battery from
> B&C . . . from which I would infer that they consider the
> battery's performance to be of good value.
>
> >I guess it boils down to trust??? What do you all think?
>
> You're making this MUCH too difficult. Why not spend the
> time finishing some tedious task on your airplane instead
> of talking to people on the phone that have NO first hand
> experience and very little second hand data on how well
> their product will work for you.
>
> Buy the lightest and cheapest battery you can find and
> give it a try. It will certainly crank your engine when
> new. By the time it is down in capacity to the point where
> you need to change it out, then you can decide if it was
> a good value. If it was cheap, then you don't stand to
> loose much on a poor choice.
>
> We're building failure tolerant airplanes. The best reason
> for "upgrading" a part is because you're tired of changing
> out parts that you perceive to be poor value. Start out at
> the bottom, work your way up and save a lot of frustration.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Larkin <aj_larkin(at)yahoo.com> |
I'm a little confused by the 403MC wiring diagram as
well. I don't understand the question just posted
here -- not sure which red and white wires the poster
was referring to. My question, which seems to be
related, is: why does the PTT wire from pin 7 have to
be connected to the mic jack? When transmitting, this
wire is grounded anyway, so why not just run a single
shielded wire from pin 7 direct to the PTT button?
I'm assuming that the "mic hi" wire (pin 2) carries
the actual signal from the microphone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Larkin <aj_larkin(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | oil pressure switch |
I bought an oil pressure switch from B&C and I'm
concerned it's either defective or the wiring diagram
is wrong. With my engine not running, the switch has
a short between terminals S and P, while there is an
open circuit between S and I. The wiring diagram
implies it should be the other way around. I'm not
yet at a stage where I can try running the engine.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Kluijfhout, PE1RUI" <jessevli(at)zeelandnet.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: oil pressure switch |
Hi Andrew,
You could use compressed air to see if the
switch does switch. Be carefull not to use
to much air pressure. Just use an air gun and
be carefull not the squeeze it too much.
Its not a calibrated messure, but you can
determine if the switch does it work or not,
without youre engine running.
Good luck,
Jesse
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Larkin" <aj_larkin(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:28 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: oil pressure switch
>
> I bought an oil pressure switch from B&C and I'm
> concerned it's either defective or the wiring diagram
> is wrong. With my engine not running, the switch has
> a short between terminals S and P, while there is an
> open circuit between S and I. The wiring diagram
> implies it should be the other way around. I'm not
> yet at a stage where I can try running the engine.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: oil pressure switch |
The S and I should be normally closed and the S and P normally open. I have
the same switch and I suspect a problem with mine also. I am getting an
open circuit on both! I am going to see how it does when the engine is
started and go from there.
Jerry Calvert
Edmond Ok
-6 finish kit
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Larkin <aj_larkin(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:28 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: oil pressure switch
>
> I bought an oil pressure switch from B&C and I'm
> concerned it's either defective or the wiring diagram
> is wrong. With my engine not running, the switch has
> a short between terminals S and P, while there is an
> open circuit between S and I. The wiring diagram
> implies it should be the other way around. I'm not
> yet at a stage where I can try running the engine.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: switch configuration |
From: Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: switch configuration
Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Bob
> > >
> > >How would I wire a situation where I want 4 items to have separate
> > >breakers, but I would like 1 switch to turn them all on/off? They have
> > >different breaker requirements.
> > >
> .
>
>
> why not just wire the fuses after the single pole switch?
>
> B+ > (fuse to protect wire to switch, if desired) >
> switch > fuse
> fuse
> fuse
> fuse
Charlie
Thanks for the reply. It's been awhile since I had time to return
email. I have 1 question. How do you determine the wire size and
protection for the feed wire? Add all the loads attached after the
switch and size the feed wire accordingly?
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommendation on components that fit Microair |
760
>Mr. Nuckolls,
>
>I'm writing for my friend who has a Hiperlight (2 seat) aircraft with a
>Rotax 503 engine. He wants to update the radio, as well as gain the option
>to fly through the Mode C veil around MCI, just north of Kansas City to get
>in or out of smaller airports.
>
>He would like to purchase the Microair from you, but he's been waiting for
>the new model to come out with the vox intercom included...as he's concerned
>about the open mike feature of the current model's intercom because of the
>high noise level in his airplane. Unfortunately, as you know, introduction
>of the new model is not assured anytime soon, so he's ready to go ahead with
>the current model, and add a separate intercom to achieve his goal.
The intercom is NOT open mic . . . but push to talk. VOX systems
do not reduce perceived noise while talking, they only make the
best possible guess as to when you would normally be pushing
a talk button by trying to distinguish your voice from other
signals heard on the headset's microphone circuit.
For aircraft with high noise levels, the PTT intercom system
that is standard with the original Microair transceiver is the
way to go. VOX systems are difficult to make work (I have a
microprocessor based design that studies signal (voice) to
noise (engine+wind) ratios in specific bandwidths in an
attempt to fully automate the task of continuously adjusting
for cabin noise. It's expensive and still not perfect. I've
had very positive feedback from customers that have used this
radio in a variety of aircraft. Once the passenger gets used
to the push-to-talk feature (takes about 5 minutes) then
both folks find the DEAD silence between spoken phrases to
be most pleasant.
>Do you have recommendations/suggestions about components from other
>manufacturers (an intercom that will work well with the radio)or
>transponder, encoder, etc. that you have experience with and will fit his
>needs of small size, low weight and low power consumption?
My best recommendation is that no additional equipment is needed
for incorporation of this radio into your friend's application.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>>
>>
>> No matter what hand-held you end up with, plan on a means
>> for connecting it to one of ship's regular comm antennas.
>
>*** Can you recommend the King handheld connection box? This is a small
>shielded box with a pair of BNC's at the back, and an ordinary miniature
>phone jack at the front. One BNC goes to your panel-mounted COM
>transceiver, the other goes to the antenna. When you plug King's special
>cord into the phone jack, it disconnects the panel com and connects your
>handheld.
>
> Questions:
>
> * Is the mini phone jack reliable enough? I would mostly worry about it
> going intermittant, in which case my panel COM could lose antenna.
> I really doubt that it is something super-duper.
But how often will it be used? Almost everybody's jacks are just
fine when new . . . it's after several hundred insertion/removal
cycles that they get tired. If this is a standby for already very
reliable panel mounted stuff, what ever jack/plug combo is supplied
will probably be fine. If you want to use the radio more consistently,
you might want to fabricate up your own switch arrangement. Loop
your comm antenna through the cockpit to a panel mounted BNC female/
cable male combination easily reached from the pilot's seat. Use short
piece of coax with BNC both ends to jump between hand held and the
panel mounted female after you've disconnected the otherwise disabled
panel radio from it. Simple, inexpensive and does not compromise
the performance of either radio.
> * Mini phone jacks are not an RF connector, and even though the box
> is shielded, some leakage will occur. Is this a problem?
The system you describe, if supplied by King, has probably
been well evaluated for performance. If you want to use something
like this as a not often used backup, it's probably a good
bet. If it were my airplane, I'd either have a second antenna
for the hand held -OR- loop the comm antenna through the cockpit
as described above.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommendation on components that fit Microair |
760
Push to talk intercom?? OK, is this a second switch? Sounds like more
complexity VS getting a good VOX system. They are out there; so most
aircraft can be made to work very well on a VOX system. I fly often with a
couple of different VOX systems and its rare when there is any unwanted side
noise. The aircraft noise level is such that talk with no headsets is not
possible.
I do not like the concept of a second switch for the pilot, one for radio
and a second for the intercom. I do not (usually) have a 3rd hand for the
extra switch nor room etc on the stick. I can understand that passengers
could use a special switch but I would not want a second switch for the
pilot. I have too many already to worry about. :-)
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 9:42 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Recommendation on components that fit
Microair 760
-
The intercom is NOT open mic . . . but push to talk. VOX systems
do not reduce perceived noise while talking, they only make the
best possible guess as to when you would normally be pushing
a talk button by trying to distinguish your voice from other
signals heard on the headset's microphone circuit.
For aircraft with high noise levels, the PTT intercom system
that is standard with the original Microair transceiver is the
way to go. VOX systems are difficult to make work (I have a
microprocessor based design that studies signal (voice) to
noise (engine+wind) ratios in specific bandwidths in an
attempt to fully automate the task of continuously adjusting
for cabin noise. It's expensive and still not perfect. I've
had very positive feedback from customers that have used this
radio in a variety of aircraft. Once the passenger gets used
to the push-to-talk feature (takes about 5 minutes) then
both folks find the DEAD silence between spoken phrases to
be most pleasant.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommendation on components that fit |
Microair 760
>
>
>Push to talk intercom?? OK, is this a second switch? Sounds like more
>complexity VS getting a good VOX system. They are out there; so most
>aircraft can be made to work very well on a VOX system. I fly often with a
>couple of different VOX systems and its rare when there is any unwanted side
>noise. The aircraft noise level is such that talk with no headsets is not
>possible.
>
>I do not like the concept of a second switch for the pilot, one for radio
>and a second for the intercom. I do not (usually) have a 3rd hand for the
>extra switch nor room etc on the stick. I can understand that passengers
>could use a special switch but I would not want a second switch for the
>pilot. I have too many already to worry about. :-)
>
>Paul
Hi Paul and all -
I much prefer a system allowing ptt for ICS (as installed on the Navy
jets I worked on). The switch is a three position "slider",
spring-loaded to center. Forward for XMIT and aft for ICS. Once you
are used to it (very brief adjustment period) you have no more
snorts, sneezes, coughs and throat clearing noise in the headset -
NICE! It's also good for flying with the doors open as the
rear-seater gets a lot more wind.
If anyone knows of a source for this switch do tell.
Bill
RANS Courier in progress
P.S.
Of course the Navy had a switch to select VOX for ICS if preferred.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: switch configuration |
Jim Robinson wrote:
>
>
> From: Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: switch configuration
> Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
> >
> >
> > "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Bob
> > > >
> > > >How would I wire a situation where I want 4 items to have separate
> > > >breakers, but I would like 1 switch to turn them all on/off? They have
> > > >different breaker requirements.
> > > >
> > .
> >
> >
> > why not just wire the fuses after the single pole switch?
> >
> > B+ > (fuse to protect wire to switch, if desired) >
> > switch > fuse
> > fuse
> > fuse
> > fuse
> Charlie
> Thanks for the reply. It's been awhile since I had time to return
> email. I have 1 question. How do you determine the wire size and
> protection for the feed wire? Add all the loads attached after the
> switch and size the feed wire accordingly?
> Jim
>
Add the current requirements of the 4 loads.
Size the primary wire, the switch, & each of the leads
leaving the switch (or one wire daisy-chained to the 4
secondary fuses) to handle the total of all 4 loads.
Size the primary fuse to protect the primary wire.
Size each of the wires leaving the 4 secondary fuses to
match its load.
Size each secondary fuse to protect its wire (going to its
load).
Just don't forget that fuses/breakers protect the wire, not
the device at the end of the wire.
And, you have a single point of failure for all 4 devices.
Unless you have an very complex panel, you can make your
life a lot easier both while building & flying by
standardizing on 2 or 3 sizes of wire & breakers. ex:
Anything under 5 amp load gets a 5A breaker & wire. 5 to 10
amps gets 10A breaker & wire. The weight penalty is minimal
for simple panels.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: oil pressure switch WIRING DIAGRAM ERROR |
> I bought an oil pressure switch from B&C and I'm
> concerned it's either defective or the wiring diagram
> is wrong. With my engine not running, the switch has
> a short between terminals S and P, while there is an
> open circuit between S and I. The wiring diagram
> implies it should be the other way around. I'm not
> yet at a stage where I can try running the engine.
I checked my data on these switches and found
that the wiring diagram at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/oilpwarn.pdf
. . . has errors. This is a big surprise to me
as we've sold at least a hundred of these switches
and this is the first time anyone has spotted it!
The terminal lettering sequence got rolled when I
did the drawing. The REAL connections are:
Terminal P is the common lead and goes to ground.
Terminal I is normally open and CLOSES to terminal
P when pressure is applied and provides ground
to the hour meter.
Terminal S is normally connected to terminal P
and OPENS when pressure is applied to remove
ground from the oil pressure warning light
and buzzer.
As soon as I can find the original drawing, I'll
correct it and repost it. Thanks for the
heads-up on this folks!
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: PTT intercom vs. VOX |
>>Push to talk intercom?? OK, is this a second switch? Sounds like more
>>complexity VS getting a good VOX system. They are out there; so most
>>aircraft can be made to work very well on a VOX system. I fly often with a
>>couple of different VOX systems and its rare when there is any unwanted side
>>noise. The aircraft noise level is such that talk with no headsets is not
>>possible.
>>
Actually, the biggest problem that VOX systems have to overcome
is the quality of the microphone. The ability of noise cancelling
microphones varies widely from product to product. I use an intercom
with a VOX and it works pretty good MOST of the time . . . but
combined with my headsets, it's sensitive to things like turning
my head 90 degrees left to look out the window. The VOX setting
that just quieted the noise while sitting normally is too loose
when the noise wave-fronts at the microphone change direction and
the system opens up.
Also, if I open an air vent to allow cooling air to blow at my
face, the VOX has to be tightened up. Of course, major changes
in power setting and airspeed will change ambient cabin noise
and unless the microphones are very good at mechanically nulling
out ambient, the VOX setting needs to change.
One of the most useful advances in VOX operated audio systems
is the inclusion of a separate VOX setting for EACH microphone
in the system. When you add more microphones to the system,
the amount of cabin noise that the intercom sees goes up meaning
that the VOX setting has to get tighter. The amount of signal
from any one person talking is a relative constant . . . so
4-place systems with all 4 headsets plugged in tend to be
a real pain in the arse.
Years ago, I used to be able to buy a military surplus headset
with what I perceived then as the best microphone available at
the time. I think these were helicopter headsets. I had to build
special amplifiers and matching networks to make them suitable
for use in civil aircraft . . . but they were so effective that
you didn't NEED a VOX system . . just run them hot all the time.
VERY pleasant to use. The source dried up about 15 years ago
and I've not had an opportunity to work anything quite as good
since.
BTW . . . the most expensive headsets are not necessarily the
most capable of reducing ambient noise at the microphone. I wrote
to five or six companies a few years back asking for samples of
ALL the headset-microphone combos they had to offer. I was going
to evaluate their microphone performance for the kinds of effects
I noted above. Only two of the five responded and then only with
part of their product line. I didn't think it was worth the trouble
to set up the tests and write the article if I couldn't get a
better cross-section of product to evaluate.
By-and-large, the PTT intercom built into the Microair IS
simpler because it takes advantage of circuitry that's already
in place for the radio . . . no additional intercom hardware
is needed . . . just separate p-buttons for intercom and
transmit. My last customer put his xmit button on top of the stick
and the intercom button on the side. Very easy to avoid confusion.
Anyone who would like to see the wiring diagrams for a Microair
transceiver can download them at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v1.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v2.pdf
If you need a little fancier audio system to incorporate
music inputs and/or audio from additional receivers
or warning tones, you can add a distribution amplifier
wired as shown in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v3.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/audio/760v4.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: switch configuration |
Thanks Charlie. Good words of wisdom.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James K. Glindemann" <jglind(at)netspace.net.au> |
> Years ago, I used to be able to buy a military surplus headset
> with what I perceived then as the best microphone available at
> the time. I think these were helicopter headsets. I had to build
> special amplifiers and matching networks to make them suitable
> for use in civil aircraft . . . but they were so effective that
Hi again Bob,
Dont suppose you could find a copy of the diagram for the amplifiers and
matching networks, I have been looking for a suitable circuit for some time.
I work on S76 and my headset is set up for low impedence mikes normally,
would be nice to use the same headset in the Long EZ without having to swap
mikes. I use CEP in ear phones and find there is no problem with the
difference in phone impedence, but the mike is another story.
regards
James K. Glindemann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank, Dan" <DFrank(at)dfwairport.com> |
Bob and others,
Here are a couple of questions that I have come up with when trying to
figure out the FWF wiring, specifically the contactors.
1.First the battery contactor. When laying out the FWF wiring, It looks
cleaner and wires don't get crossed, if I can take the battery contactor as
delivered from B&C and turn the diode around and switch the jumper to the
other side. Basically making a mirror image. Is there any thing wrong with
doing this. I noticed that on the left side, "BAT" is stamped near the
large post, does this mean anything?
2. On the starter contactor, do I use the S or the I for the starter
engaged light? I assume I use the other for ground.
Thanks in advance,
Dan Frank
RV-8 Finish Kit
http://n808vr.homestead.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Bob and others,
>
>Here are a couple of questions that I have come up with when trying to
>figure out the FWF wiring, specifically the contactors.
>
>1.First the battery contactor. When laying out the FWF wiring, It looks
>cleaner and wires don't get crossed, if I can take the battery contactor as
>delivered from B&C and turn the diode around and switch the jumper to the
>other side. Basically making a mirror image. Is there any thing wrong with
>doing this. I noticed that on the left side, "BAT" is stamped near the
>large post, does this mean anything?
The housing that is used to fabricate the battery contactor
we sell is the same housing for a 3-terminal device wherein
the contactor's coil is internally wired to the "BAT" terminal.
With the 4-terminal device, you can use either terminal as a
BAT terminal and turning the diode/jumper comb around as you've
suggested is okay to do.
>2. On the starter contactor, do I use the S or the I for the starter
>engaged light? I assume I use the other for ground.
"S" goes to the starter switch or pushbutton. "I" may indeed be used
as a "stuck contactor" indicator light. Put an inline fuse or
fusible link right at terminal "I" to protect the wire. The mounting
base of the contactor is ground . . . so if you're doing a composite
airplane, you need to run a 20AWG jumper wire from a contator mounting
bolt to the firewall ground bus.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dynamic Mikes |
>
>
>> Years ago, I used to be able to buy a military surplus headset
>> with what I perceived then as the best microphone available at
>> the time. I think these were helicopter headsets. I had to build
>> special amplifiers and matching networks to make them suitable
>> for use in civil aircraft . . . but they were so effective that
>
>Hi again Bob,
>
>Dont suppose you could find a copy of the diagram for the amplifiers and
>matching networks, I have been looking for a suitable circuit for some time.
>I work on S76 and my headset is set up for low impedence mikes normally,
>would be nice to use the same headset in the Long EZ without having to swap
>mikes. I use CEP in ear phones and find there is no problem with the
>difference in phone impedence, but the mike is another story.
Hmmmm . . . as I recall, the microphone was a very low
impedance (about 5 ohms) dynamic device (moving coil
and stationary magnet). I used an integrated circuit
normally used to amplify the very meager output from a
phonograph cartridge up to carbon microphone levels . . .
about 700 mV pk-pk max for normal speech. This signal
was coupled to about a 100 ohm resistor that dummy
loaded the transmitter's mic input to make it think
a standard mic was plugged in. I think I tried using
the bias supplied by the transmitter to power the
circuit without success . . . however, is suspect that
modern chips might be capable of operating from the
transmitter's normally mic-power . . . I'd have to
do some hammering on the workbench to confirm and trim
the design. If push comes to shove, you can always
power the mic pre-amp independently of the vhf
comm transmitter.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: oil pressure switch WIRING DIAGRAM ERROR |
>
>
> I checked my data on these switches and found
> that the wiring diagram at:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/oilpwarn.pdf
>
> . . . has errors.
The drawing has been corrected.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on alternator/radio noise |
>Bob,
>
>I have had a progressively worsening problem with radio "static" What
>started as a periodic "popping" on my radios has now turned into a
>near-constant static. The noise is eliminated when I turn off the
>alternator.
>
>The noise is heard in both radios. It is worse on the one with the
>windshield antenna (i.e. the one closer to the alternator) I am running
>your scheme of two separate busses, and each radio is on a different buss.
>The alternator is using a Ford solid state flatpack voltage regulator which
>is attached to the alternator (Mark landoll)
>
>I am assuming that I am getting RF noise from the alternator into the
>radios. I expect to troubleshoot the problem in the following order:
>
>1: Bypass the circuit to the master switch/overvoltage protection by moving
>the VR sense wire directly over to the "B" lead of the alternator. This
>should identify if the noise is emanating from the wiring circuit or the
>alternator itself.
Good thinking. If this has ANY positive effect, this
would help deduce both the source and propagation mode
for the noise.
>2. Remove the alternator for bench testing. Perhaps oneof the diodes has
>failed and what I am seeing is the result of some AC from the alternator.
If a diode fails, you get LOTS of whine . . . this is not
a diode failure. My best guess at the moment is worn brushes
that were initially transiently intermittent but the condition
is getting worse. How many hours on the alternator? Was it
new, rebuilt or perhaps a salvage yard bolt-on?
>3. Replace the VR. I have another model which can be mounted away from the
>alternator.
I would try this too before pulling the alternator. An
inexpensive VR166 from the auto parts store is a stock
piece of test equipment in my tool box. I can hook it up
right at the back of the alternator and totally bypass all
other alternator wiring except the b-lead . . . gives you
a fast means for deducing a variety of system ills.
Let me know what you find out.
>Have you encountered this type of raspy static coming from the charging
>system before? It is not the typical whine you would expect.
Your perceptions are on the right track . . . let's run this
dog to ground.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Graham <beeb(at)teleport.com> |
Bob, (et al)
How well do Rubber Ducky antennas work when mounted to a ground plane (e.g.
glare shield, fuselage etc.)? I have seen them used for ELT systems
(doesn't mean that they work well). It would be nice to have a handheld
radio use its own antenna as a remote mount. Comments?
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don R Jordan <dons6a(at)juno.com> |
On your starter you need to bring 12v from the starter switch to the "S"
terminal.
The cast is grounded.
If you want a starter engage , run from the "I" to a light to ground.
Don Jordan - 6A - N6DJ - dons6a(at)juno.com
Arlington, TX
**********************************************************
writes:
>
>
> Bob and others,
>
> Here are a couple of questions that I have come up with when trying
> to
> figure out the FWF wiring, specifically the contactors.
>
> 1.First the battery contactor. When laying out the FWF wiring, It
> looks
> cleaner and wires don't get crossed, if I can take the battery
> contactor as
> delivered from B&C and turn the diode around and switch the jumper
> to the
> other side. Basically making a mirror image. Is there any thing
> wrong with
> doing this. I noticed that on the left side, "BAT" is stamped near
> the
> large post, does this mean anything?
>
> 2. On the starter contactor, do I use the S or the I for the
> starter
> engaged light? I assume I use the other for ground.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dan Frank
> RV-8 Finish Kit
> http://n808vr.homestead.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James K. Glindemann" <jglind(at)netspace.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Dynamic Mikes |
> Hmmmm . . . as I recall, the microphone was a very low
> impedance (about 5 ohms) dynamic device (moving coil
> and stationary magnet). I used an integrated circuit
You are right , most of the larger helicopter installations still use these
mikes.
Thanks for the info
regards
James K. Glindemann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alt. Antennas |
>
>Bob, (et al)
>How well do Rubber Ducky antennas work when mounted to a ground plane (e.g.
>glare shield, fuselage etc.)? I have seen them used for ELT systems
>(doesn't mean that they work well). It would be nice to have a handheld
>radio use its own antenna as a remote mount. Comments?
>
>Gary
No reason for them not to perform fairly well. You can mount
a BNC connector to the ground plane and plug the antenna onto
the connector. Then check it with an antenna analyzer to see
how well it will accept power from the radio . . . it will probably
be less than 3:1 swr.
It's very difficult to predict performance as a radiator. Lots
of variables when the antenna is located somewhat inside the
cockpit. You can try it and then devise a "plan B" if it's
unsatisfactory to your needs.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: switch configuration |
Jim Robinson wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Charlie. Good words of wisdom.
>
> Jim
>
Well, I've been accused of many things, but never wisdom.
:-)
See you at OSH.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: switch configuration |
From: Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: switch configuration
Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> Jim Robinson wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Charlie. Good words of wisdom.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> Well, I've been accused of many things, but never wisdom.
> :-)
>
> See you at OSH.
>
> Charlie
>
Charlie
I will be in the Glasair area. Glasair 1, N714PT. Please look me
up.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Mag Toggle Swithces |
Bob:
Are the toggle switches used for a left mag, right elec ignition special
swithces or just SPST? Pushbutton starter.
Len Leggette RV-8A
N901LL (res)
Greensboro, N.C.
Plumbing & Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mag Toggle Swithces |
>
>Bob:
>
>Are the toggle switches used for a left mag, right elec ignition special
>swithces or just SPST? Pushbutton starter.
You can use plain vanilla toggles . . . If your
right mag doesn't have an impulse coupler, I prefer
to use DPST (S700-2-3 in our catalog) and wire the
second poles in series with the starter push button
(See S710-1) such that the starter cannot be engaged
unless the left mag is ON and the right mag is OFF.
See exemplar diagrams in Appendix Z download at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/R9Z_0400.pdf
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | 2awg wiring questions |
A few questions on the 2awg wires. I am using the figure Z-9 diagram for
inspiration and my alternator is Van's 35amp.
(1) Diagram uses two 2awg wires to connect battery to contactor and also to
ground block. Mine will each be 8" in length. I want to order these from
B&C, but theirs are 4awg. Will these be ok?
(2) Since my alternator is 35 amp, can I substitute 8awg wire for the 4awg
wire that goes from the battery contactor to the main bus.
(3) Also can I substitute 8awg for the 4awg wire from the starter contactor
thru the 80amp fuselink to the shunt and from the other side of the shunt to
the alternator? Or would the wire melt before the fuselink would??
Thanks,
Jerry
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2awg wiring questions |
| From: | Don R Jordan <dons6a(at)juno.com> |
I used 4 to the starter. Its so heavy I think I will only get .00001
voltage drop.
I would think that 8 would be OK from the alternator for the 35 amp.
Don Jordan - 6A - N6DJ - dons6a(at)juno.com - Arlington, TX
***********************************************************************
writes:
>
>
> A few questions on the 2awg wires. I am using the figure Z-9
> diagram for
> inspiration and my alternator is Van's 35amp.
>
> (1) Diagram uses two 2awg wires to connect battery to contactor and
> also to
> ground block. Mine will each be 8" in length. I want to order
> these from
> B&C, but theirs are 4awg. Will these be ok?
>
> (2) Since my alternator is 35 amp, can I substitute 8awg wire for
> the 4awg
> wire that goes from the battery contactor to the main bus.
>
>
> (3) Also can I substitute 8awg for the 4awg wire from the starter
> contactor
> thru the 80amp fuselink to the shunt and from the other side of the
> shunt to
> the alternator? Or would the wire melt before the fuselink would??
>
> Thanks,
> Jerry
> RV-6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2awg wiring questions |
>
>A few questions on the 2awg wires. I am using the figure Z-9 diagram for
>inspiration and my alternator is Van's 35amp.
>
>(1) Diagram uses two 2awg wires to connect battery to contactor and also to
>ground block. Mine will each be 8" in length. I want to order these from
>B&C, but theirs are 4awg. Will these be ok?
Sure . . . in fact, on an RV with a battery on firewall, you
can use 4AWG throughout.
>(2) Since my alternator is 35 amp, can I substitute 8awg wire for the 4awg
>wire that goes from the battery contactor to the main bus.
Yes . .
>(3) Also can I substitute 8awg for the 4awg wire from the starter contactor
>thru the 80amp fuselink to the shunt and from the other side of the shunt to
>the alternator? Or would the wire melt before the fuselink would??
Yes and no . . . the fuse will pop only when you have shorted
diodes in the alternator . . . a HARD fault that causes hundreds
of amps to flow. The fuse will open in milliseconds . . . the
wire will get barely warm to touch.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2awg wiring questions - Poor Syntax in Answer |
Looking back over my reply, I believe it's unclear.
>>(3) Also can I substitute 8awg for the 4awg wire from the starter contactor
>>thru the 80amp fuselink to the shunt and from the other side of the shunt to
>>the alternator? Or would the wire melt before the fuselink would??
>
> Yes . . .
You CAN substitute a smaller wire and
> and no . . . the fuse will pop only when you have shorted
> diodes in the alternator . . . a HARD fault that causes hundreds
> of amps to flow. The fuse will open in milliseconds . . . the
> 8AWG wire will get barely warm to touch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2awg wiring questions |
Bob, Thanks for the clarification. My Odessy battery and contactors are
mounted on the firewall so I will use 4awg for all places that 2awg would
have been used including the starter cable. Now I can have B&C make all my
cables. Good to know the 8awg can be substituted also..that will be the
fattest wire in the cockpit.
Thanks again,
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:21 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2awg wiring questions
>
> >
> >A few questions on the 2awg wires. I am using the figure Z-9 diagram for
> >inspiration and my alternator is Van's 35amp.
> >
> >(1) Diagram uses two 2awg wires to connect battery to contactor and also
to
> >ground block. Mine will each be 8" in length. I want to order these
from
> >B&C, but theirs are 4awg. Will these be ok?
>
> Sure . . . in fact, on an RV with a battery on firewall, you
> can use 4AWG throughout.
>
>
> >(2) Since my alternator is 35 amp, can I substitute 8awg wire for the
4awg
> >wire that goes from the battery contactor to the main bus.
>
> Yes . .
>
>
> >(3) Also can I substitute 8awg for the 4awg wire from the starter
contactor
> >thru the 80amp fuselink to the shunt and from the other side of the shunt
to
> >the alternator? Or would the wire melt before the fuselink would??
>
> Yes and no . . . the fuse will pop only when you have shorted
> diodes in the alternator . . . a HARD fault that causes hundreds
> of amps to flow. The fuse will open in milliseconds . . . the
> wire will get barely warm to touch.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
> ( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
> ( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
> ( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
> ( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
> ( Charles Kettering )
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Starter Contactors Available? |
| From: | "Steve Williams" <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
09:03:26 PM
A Tiger owner tells me that somebody told him starter contactors are no
longer available. I can't believe that, as the contactor used in the Tiger
is the same as in dozens of other makes and models. What's a good source?
(Production aircraft, so we'd need either the original part or a nearly
identical part currently in use on production aircraft.)
Steve Williams
http://www.sbw.org/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mag Toggle Swithces |
| From: | Joel Harding <dsl10driver(at)ev1.net> |
> You can use plain vanilla toggles . . . If your
> right mag doesn't have an impulse coupler, I prefer
> to use DPST (S700-2-3 in our catalog) and wire the
> second poles in series with the starter push button
> (See S710-1) such that the starter cannot be engaged
> unless the left mag is ON and the right mag is OFF.
Bob,
If I understand the wiring diagram on page Z-9, you used 2-5 switches for
the mags, which eliminates the starter button if you use the spring loaded
position for start. Does this also reduce the safety margin by only
requiring movement of one device to begin rotating the prop, and if so is
there any way to regain the margin with that setup?
Joel Harding
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2awg wiring questions |
| From: | Joel Harding <dsl10driver(at)ev1.net> |
on 6/22/01 11:21, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com
wrote:
> (1) Diagram uses two 2awg wires to connect battery to contactor and also to
>> ground block. Mine will each be 8" in length. I want to order these from
>> B&C, but theirs are 4awg. Will these be ok?
>
> Sure . . . in fact, on an RV with a battery on firewall, you
> can use 4AWG throughout.
Bob
I guess you do still recommend 2awg wire for the rear battery placement?
Thanks, Joel Harding
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2awg wiring questions |
I'm not Bob, but my battery is waaay back in the rear and I believe I've
followed Bob's instructions correctly.
1. 2 AWG is necessary, esp. if you use a permanent magnet starter like
the Sky-Tec, which I have.
2. Place the the battery contactor (relay) as close to the battery as
practical. Mine is mounted to a brace attached to a longeron. The
starter contactor stays FWF, so you're running the 2 AWG thru the firewall.
3. It's important that you're battery stay as fully charged as
possible, given the long cable run and the current draw from the
starter. I ran some 4AWG cables thru the lightening holes in the rear
fuse. bulkhead to the empennage deck and attached them to an insulated
block. The empennage fairing is held on with just 4 screws, so it's
easy to get to for charging or jumping. So, get a charger that can be
left on the battery--I use the EPS unit from Australia sold thru AC$,
p/n EPS-1208(8 amps)/EPS-1214(14 amps).
Boyd Braem
Joel Harding wrote:
>
>
> on 6/22/01 11:21, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com
> wrote:
>
> > (1) Diagram uses two 2awg wires to connect battery to contactor and also to
> >> ground block. Mine will each be 8" in length. I want to order these from
> >> B&C, but theirs are 4awg. Will these be ok?
> >
> > Sure . . . in fact, on an RV with a battery on firewall, you
> > can use 4AWG throughout.
>
> Bob
> I guess you do still recommend 2awg wire for the rear battery placement?
>
> Thanks, Joel Harding
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | input and power for music |
I want music in my phones, but have changed my mind about a CD player in
favor of one those solid state devices that have no moving parts and is
immune (for the most part) to vibration. However, I still need power for
it and a stereo to mono input to my intercom.
What I propose is:
For the input, taking the headphone jack from the music player and wiring
each signal lead to a 470 ohm resistor, tying them together at the other
end, and using that for the signal input to the intercom.
For power, which requires 9V will little current (less than .5 amp) I would
simply use a 7809 regulator to drop the voltage, along with some capacitors
to steady it.
Anybody know of a better way?
Thanks,
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Mokry <robmokry(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | More music in intercom questions |
I was able to wire up a music input to a PS eng. intercom. I would like
to use my MP3 player headphone jack - problem is the signal strength is
low. Is there a way to amplify the signal?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More music in intercom questions |
Same problem I have with Garmin 340 audio panel and a few others.
There is no way to increase signal level inside audio unit, so I developed
amplifier. If you interested, drop me a note, I have PC board, and
I could make them in small batches.
Amplification could be adjust by an voltage control. Been air tested
for 8 month. Simple to install/add to existing wiring.
Vlad
>
>I was able to wire up a music input to a PS eng. intercom. I would like
>to use my MP3 player headphone jack - problem is the signal strength is
>low. Is there a way to amplify the signal?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2awg wiring questions |
>
>I'm not Bob, but my battery is waaay back in the rear and I believe I've
>followed Bob's instructions correctly.
>
>1. 2 AWG is necessary, esp. if you use a permanent magnet starter like
>the Sky-Tec, which I have.
If the battery is behind the cockpit, 2AWG is recommended.
>2. Place the the battery contactor (relay) as close to the battery as
>practical. Mine is mounted to a brace attached to a longeron. The
>starter contactor stays FWF, so you're running the 2 AWG thru the firewall.
>3. It's important that you're battery stay as fully charged as
>possible, given the long cable run and the current draw from the
>starter. I ran some 4AWG cables thru the lightening holes in the rear
>fuse. bulkhead to the empennage deck and attached them to an insulated
>block. The empennage fairing is held on with just 4 screws, so it's
>easy to get to for charging or jumping. So, get a charger that can be
>left on the battery--I use the EPS unit from Australia sold thru AC$,
>p/n EPS-1208(8 amps)/EPS-1214(14 amps).
This kind of attention paid to a recombinant gas battery
is not necessary. The self discharge rate on an RG
battery is less than 1/2 of 1% per day . . . unless you
plan store the airplane for a very long time, I would
not worry about keeping a charger on the battery.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2awg wiring questions |
>
>on 6/22/01 11:21, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com
>wrote:
>
>> (1) Diagram uses two 2awg wires to connect battery to contactor and also to
>>> ground block. Mine will each be 8" in length. I want to order these from
>>> B&C, but theirs are 4awg. Will these be ok?
>>
>> Sure . . . in fact, on an RV with a battery on firewall, you
>> can use 4AWG throughout.
>
>Bob
>I guess you do still recommend 2awg wire for the rear battery placement?
>
>Thanks, Joel Harding
YES . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jesse Kluijfhout, PE1RUI" <jessevli(at)zeelandnet.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: More music in intercom questions |
Hi Vlad,
I am interrested, could you send me the schematic
diagram ?
Regards,
Jesse
----- Original Message -----
From: "ET - #PU" <psi(at)hillweb.com>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More music in intercom questions
>
> Same problem I have with Garmin 340 audio panel and a few others.
> There is no way to increase signal level inside audio unit, so I developed
> amplifier. If you interested, drop me a note, I have PC board, and
> I could make them in small batches.
> Amplification could be adjust by an voltage control. Been air tested
> for 8 month. Simple to install/add to existing wiring.
> Vlad
>
>
> >
> >I was able to wire up a music input to a PS eng. intercom. I would like
> >to use my MP3 player headphone jack - problem is the signal strength is
> >low. Is there a way to amplify the signal?
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ET - #PU <psi(at)hillweb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More music in intercom questions |
Currently this product we offered for sale, and we are sorry, but
we could not provide any schematic. With unit we will provide
connection diagram.
Just buy product and fly! Do you want to resale products?
We have more in our product line:
- Anticollision Light Unit;
- Audio Unit;
- Servo Control Unit (will control two RC servo, mainly used for
aerodynamical timers and other actuated applications);
- Fuel Measurement and Warning unit;
...
Please visit our site with UNET(tm) technologies:
http://www.unet.umbtech.com
Vlad
>
>
>Hi Vlad,
>
>I am interrested, could you send me the schematic
>diagram ?
>
>Regards,
>
>Jesse
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "ET - #PU" <psi(at)hillweb.com>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:06 AM
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More music in intercom questions
>
>
> >
> > Same problem I have with Garmin 340 audio panel and a few others.
> > There is no way to increase signal level inside audio unit, so I developed
> > amplifier. If you interested, drop me a note, I have PC board, and
> > I could make them in small batches.
> > Amplification could be adjust by an voltage control. Been air tested
> > for 8 month. Simple to install/add to existing wiring.
> > Vlad
> >
> >
> > >
> > >I was able to wire up a music input to a PS eng. intercom. I would like
> > >to use my MP3 player headphone jack - problem is the signal strength is
> > >low. Is there a way to amplify the signal?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mag Toggle Swithces |
>
>
>> You can use plain vanilla toggles . . . If your
>> right mag doesn't have an impulse coupler, I prefer
>> to use DPST (S700-2-3 in our catalog) and wire the
>> second poles in series with the starter push button
>> (See S710-1) such that the starter cannot be engaged
>> unless the left mag is ON and the right mag is OFF.
>
>
>Bob,
>If I understand the wiring diagram on page Z-9, you used 2-5 switches for
>the mags, which eliminates the starter button if you use the spring loaded
>position for start. Does this also reduce the safety margin by only
>requiring movement of one device to begin rotating the prop, and if so is
>there any way to regain the margin with that setup?
>
>Joel Harding
Explain the "lost safety margin" . . . what condition do you
perceive that puts a pilot into a panic mode to energize the
starter?
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mag Toggle Swithces |
I would tend to agree with Joel...
OK in flight it's not a problem but surely a single inadvertent action that
could rotate a propeller is a hazard on the ground.
It's not really a panic mode more an accidental knock of a switch that
should be guarded against, there I've just answered my own objection put a
guard on the switch = 2 actions to start.
Bob Marshall
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com]
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:18 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mag Toggle Swithces
>
>Bob,
>If I understand the wiring diagram on page Z-9, you used 2-5 switches for
>the mags, which eliminates the starter button if you use the spring loaded
>position for start. Does this also reduce the safety margin by only
>requiring movement of one device to begin rotating the prop, and if so is
>there any way to regain the margin with that setup?
>
>Joel Harding
Explain the "lost safety margin" . . . what condition do you
perceive that puts a pilot into a panic mode to energize the
starter?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
Hello,
I'm looking for some sort of book that would describe the electronics
used in small planes. Best would be at a "technician" level, e.g. for
someone who is already in electronics - not to waste my time and paper
trying to teach the difference between voltage and current, and how a
resistor works - I already know these things, thank you.
The book I'm looking for would describe in detail the frequencies and
modulation used for VOR signals. It would describe the standard
interfaces between navcoms, glideslope receivers, indicators, and GPS's.
It would describe the frequencies and pulses for DME's and transponders.
It would tell the Gray codes used for mode C.
Is there anything like this out there? Thanks in advance,
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mag Toggle Swithces |
| From: | Joel Harding <dsl10driver(at)ev1.net> |
on 6/25/01 10:17, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com
wrote:
>
> Explain the "lost safety margin" . . . what condition do you
> perceive that puts a pilot into a panic mode to energize the
> starter?
I was thinking more about accidentally bumping the switch with my size
thirteens, rather than being in some kind of panic mode. Even though I will
place the switches in the lower right corner of the panel, I don't have
experience yet crawling in and out of this thing, and it just seemed like it
might be safer to require two actions to start the prop rotating rather than
one.
Thanks,
Joel Harding
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | More: Starter Contactors Available? |
| From: | "Steve Williams" <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
05:38:30 PM
I'm told that the Grumman parts book calls for a Prestolite starter
contactor, and no replacement part has ever been identified. A Stancor
replacement for the MASTER contactor, 70-914, is available, but Stancor
doesn't make a corresponding intermittent duty contactor.
In fact, the official drawings for the AG5B (the updated version of the
AA5B, with a 24V electrical system, alas) call for a Stancor 70-915 as the
starter contactor. Trouble is, that's the 24V version of the 70-914
continuous-duty contactor! I haven't actually HEARD of a lot of AG5B
starter contactors sticking due to the use of this inappropriate part, but
I am a bit surprised that FAA approved American General's production with
that part. Now the AG5B is about to go back into production. I don't yet
know whether they'll use a more appropriate part.
I just KNOW that Cessna, Piper, Mooney, and every homebuilt out there are
using an appropriate intermittent-duty contactor. Who's the manufacturer?
What's the part number? If it's PMA'd for another production aircraft, I'm
sure it'd be easy to get it approved in a Grumman.
Thanks for any information you can provide.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 403mc Audio System |
>Good afternoon Bob,
>Trying to trouble shoot why I can not transmit on my intercom. Volume and
>squelch seem to work but no mike sound. Checked wires and connections.
>Looking at your sketch and Flightcom's I note a difference of connections.
>Flightcom's pin two goes to the short post on the mic jack. Yours to the
>tall post. This is reversed on all your mic jacks. Could this be my problem?
>Best regards,
>Bruce Bell
>Lubbock, Texas
Not sure what you mean by "short" post and "tall" post. I've
photographed a typical microphone jack and plug and identified
their respective functions and terminals on the microphone jack.
You are invited to check my "shop notes" at . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html
See if this explanation helps you sort out where the wires
go on your connections to the microphone jack.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Ipaq user feedback needed |
Listers,
Does anyone have experience with a Compaq Ipaq's
survivability when dropped? Mine didn't. I had just received
it (it was a gift; I'm a really great guy :->) & it did not
survive a fall from waist height to a hard surface floor.
If my experience is a fluke & others have had them survive
this kind of 'test' then I will consider keeping it. The
AnywhereMap software is really nice.
If they aren't rugged enough to survive short falls like
this, I'll have to return it & go for a conventional a/c
GPS.
Thanks for your input.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Bell" <rv4bell(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | 403mc Audio system |
Hi Bob,
I didn't understand the mic symbol on your drawing. I took the short barb
as the ring and the middle barb as the tip. But now I see you are using the
short barb as the tip and the middle barb as the ring. Is this correct? I
guess to reason out the symbol is to insert the mic plug from right to left.
Doing this your drawing is correct and I wired my mic jacks backwards. Live
and learn! I guess that is what home building is all about! Pulling all the
mic jacks and doing it right!
Best regards,
Bruce Bell
Lubbock, Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Ipaq user feedback needed |
My wife's palm met the same fate after only two weeks. It fell from waist
high to the carpeted floor. The screen cracked. Her's was free (!!!) at a
trade show - it was the wireless one too. $100 to replace. It may seem
sort of fragile, but would any of the Garmin products do any better in the
same circumstance?
I keep my IPAQ in it's zippered leather case when away from the desk. I
haven't tried the anywhere map yet, but I'm tempted.
Larry Bowen
RV-8 canoe
Email: Larry(at)BowenAero.com
Web: http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> Charlie and Tupper England
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:29 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ipaq user feedback needed
>
>
> England
>
> Listers,
>
> Does anyone have experience with a Compaq Ipaq's
> survivability when dropped? Mine didn't. I had just received
> it (it was a gift; I'm a really great guy :->) & it did not
> survive a fall from waist height to a hard surface floor.
>
> If my experience is a fluke & others have had them survive
> this kind of 'test' then I will consider keeping it. The
> AnywhereMap software is really nice.
>
> If they aren't rugged enough to survive short falls like
> this, I'll have to return it & go for a conventional a/c
> GPS.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Charlie
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Ipaq user feedback needed |
Hi, Charlie..
>>Does anyone have experience with a Compaq Ipaq's
survivability when dropped? ...it did not
survive a fall from waist height to a hard surface floor.<<
I had left mine on the roof of my car (an RX-7) and forgot about it until I
closed the drivers door, and saw it fall past the passenger window, onto the
driveway. It's still fine. But, then again, maybe mine landed "just right".
I sure don't want to test it to see how much it can take!
I carry it with me everywhere, no problems yet.
Harley Dixon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 403mc Audio system |
>
>Hi Bob,
>I didn't understand the mic symbol on your drawing. I took the short barb
>as the ring and the middle barb as the tip. But now I see you are using the
>short barb as the tip and the middle barb as the ring. Is this correct?
Yes . . . if you stuck a plug into the symbolic jack, which
contact would touch which part of the plug?
>I
>guess to reason out the symbol is to insert the mic plug from right to left.
>Doing this your drawing is correct and I wired my mic jacks backwards. Live
>and learn! I guess that is what home building is all about! Pulling all the
>mic jacks and doing it right!
I think you're on the right track my friend.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mag Toggle Swithces |
>
>on 6/25/01 10:17, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Explain the "lost safety margin" . . . what condition do you
>> perceive that puts a pilot into a panic mode to energize the
>> starter?
>
>I was thinking more about accidentally bumping the switch with my size
>thirteens, rather than being in some kind of panic mode. Even though I will
>place the switches in the lower right corner of the panel, I don't have
>experience yet crawling in and out of this thing, and it just seemed like it
>might be safer to require two actions to start the prop rotating rather than
>one.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Joel Harding
It does . . . the battery master has to be on and the mag switch
raised to the start condition at the same time. Actually, it's
probably better to use two S700-2-3 switches and a guarded push
button. You can combine the start switch into the right mag's
spring loaded full-up with an S700-2-5 . . . but this functions
the same way as the right mag disable jumper on the classic
off-l-r-both-start keyswitch. There is still risk of having the
engine still be rotating and the right mag firing to early
during an aborted crank. If it were MY airplane and I had two
mags, there would be two S700-2-3 switches and a push button.
I'd run the starter pushbutton in series with MAG ON contacts
of the left mag switch and MAG OFF contacts of the right
mag switch. Figure Z-1, Revision 10 to the 'Connection will
show this configuration.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob A" <racker(at)rmci.net> |
| Subject: | Daniels Wire Crimper |
I have a Daniels Mfg. Co. HX4 M22520/5-01 crimper (with M22520/5-100 dies
for 10-26 gauge crimps), http://www.dmctools.com/dmctools/open-frame.html.
I've contacted the manufacturer for an instruction sheet, in the meantime
can anyone tell me how to use this beast so I can start wiring? Thanks.
Rob Acker (RV-6Q, painting & wiring)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re:TNC connectors |
Bob:
My GPS antenna requires a TNC connector. Could you recommend a mfg. and part
no. for RG-400 coax. Also the GPS requires an altitude input D4 from the
encoder but my encoder only supplies A1 thru C4. Would you please comment on
this?
Thanks,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re:TNC connectors |
>
> Bob:
>
> My GPS antenna requires a TNC connector. Could you recommend a mfg. and part
> no. for RG-400 coax. Also the GPS requires an altitude input D4 from the
> encoder but my encoder only supplies A1 thru C4. Would you please comment on
> this?
*** Well, I can't address the TNC connector, but the D4 wire... ....is for
higher altitudes. One extra wire doubles the # of altitudes for a normal
binary code, not sure what it does for Gray code. You can leave this D4
input unconnected, or maybe pull it high - although I think the standard is
for inputs to have their own pullup resistors.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Daniels Wire Crimper |
>
>I have a Daniels Mfg. Co. HX4 M22520/5-01 crimper (with M22520/5-100 dies
>for 10-26 gauge crimps), http://www.dmctools.com/dmctools/open-frame.html.
>
>I've contacted the manufacturer for an instruction sheet, in the meantime
>can anyone tell me how to use this beast so I can start wiring? Thanks.
You generally don't get instructions (except perhaps a note on
how to change dies) with this kind of tool. For most folk in the
industry, a crimp tool is like a screwdriver or hammer . . .
I'd just get some terminals (cheap hardware store plasti-grips
are fine) and do some experimentation. When you can do a pretty
job on a junk terminal, you're ready to put the good ones into
your airplane.
Bob . . .
( An inventor is simply a person who doesn't take his education )
( too seriously. We often say that the biggest job we have is )
( to teach a newly hired employee how to fail intelligently. )
( We have to train him to experiment over and over and to keep )
( on trying and failing until he learns what will work. )
( Charles Kettering )
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Daniels Wire Crimper |
> >I have a Daniels Mfg. Co. HX4 M22520/5-01 crimper (with M22520/5-100 dies
> >for 10-26 gauge crimps), http://www.dmctools.com/dmctools/open-frame.html.
Is this tool suitable for crimping large wire gauges (4, 6, 8?) with the
correct dies? Or is there another recommended tool for doing these larger
sizes?
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Daniels Wire Crimper |
| From: | <racker(at)rmci.net> |
By replacing the dies, you can crimp many different types of connectors. I have
ordered a catalog on-line to find out what selection is available.
Rob.
-----Original Message-----
FROM: Bob Steward
DATE: Tue 6/26/01 10:18
SUBJECT: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Daniels Wire Crimper
> >I have a Daniels Mfg. Co. HX4 M22520/5-01 crimper (with M22520/5-100 dies
> >for 10-26 gauge crimps), http://www.dmctools.com/dmctools/open-frame.html.
Is this tool suitable for crimping large wire gauges (4, 6, 8?) with the
correct dies? Or is there another recommended tool for doing these larger
sizes?
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Daniels Wire Crimper |
| From: | <racker(at)rmci.net> |
> You generally don't get instructions (except perhaps a note on
> how to change dies) with this kind of tool. For most folk in the
> industry, a crimp tool is like a screwdriver or hammer . . .
> I'd just get some terminals (cheap hardware store plasti-grips
> are fine) and do some experimentation. When you can do a pretty
> job on a junk terminal, you're ready to put the good ones into
> your airplane.
>
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
Thanks for the reply. Indeed, all I got was a die change diagram (however, their
web page had a nice sample step-by-step instruction sheet, which is what I
am after).
First, should I be using this tool? Or was I sold a bill of goods as this being
one of the finest? Should I use the tool on the B&C page?
I have experimented on a few terminals. The result is not readily visible, so
how to I know I have the wire properly crimped and the strain relief properly
done?
Thanks, Rob (Wiring 101 for Dummies )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Bell" <rv4bell(at)door.net> |
Hi Bob,
Changed the wires around on the mic jacks and hooked up the radio correctly,
per your 403mc drawing, and everything checks out. Didn't have another radio
around but I do get a transmit light and side tone with the PTT. A word of
caution, make sure the volume and squelch controls on the intercom are all
the way down when you turn the battery switch on the first time. If not the
noise will blast your ear drums. Ask me how I know! Thank you for all the
help on this puppy.
Best regards,
Bruce Bell
Lubbock, Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Daniels Wire Crimper |
> I have experimented on a few terminals. The result is not readily
> visible, so how to I know I have the wire properly crimped and the strain
> relief properly done?
*** Light Plane Maintenance had a really good article on crimpers and
terminals a year or so ago. They made up a test jig with a crank and an
inline scale, the kind you might use for weighing fish.
Basically, they were looking for pullout strength. The bigger numbers
they got on the scale, the better. They were also happy if the wire broke
in two, rather than pulling out at the crimp.
The very best crimps were done by a $300 AMP tool. The second best, as I
remember, were a $70 tool made by Sargent. All of the "good" tools they
reviewed were ratchet tools with removable dies. They also reviewed one
general purpose "electrician" tool. It sucked, but they were able to get
good crimps with decent connectors. With the combination of a cheap tool,
and cheap connectors, they were unable to get a good crimp :).
It also mattered which brand and type of connector was used. AMP came out
on top, again... I don't remember any of the also-rans, I buy AMP.
May 22, 2001 - June 26, 2001
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-af