2.	LLE - Laker Leading Edge.  This is a new item that is looking
      very exciting.  We have all discussed, some have tried (including
      Kitfox),  the advantages of having a smooth leading edge.  It has been
      accomplished in the past using aluminum. The issue with aluminum leading
      edges was the oil canning.  The aluminum leading edge initially looked
      very good but as the Kitfox wing is very flexible oil canning would
      occur and possible disrupt the airflow not to mention looks pretty bad.
      After some trial and error we have developed a leading edge from
      composite materials so it is very light weight, strong, and flexible.
      The tooling is complete, articles are being installed for testing.
      3.	A new design molded gas cap fairing.. it is more  streamlined
      and will have flanges for easy installation.  Many other molded parts
      are also available.
      4.	Kitfox Bush Gear - Currently for the Model IV and earlier
      versions. This is a bolt on system very similar to a Super Cub type
      gear.
      5.	SLSA - Kitfox will have an SLSA available next year.  The
      conforming proto-type (required by the ASTM) is being completed with a
      December target date.  This aircraft will be equipped very similar to
      our current factory demo.
      
      
      Any questions please feel free to give us a call.
      
      
      Fly Safe !!
      John & Debra McBean
      Ph 208.337.5111
      www.kitfoxaircraft.com 
      "The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground" 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Fuel drain
Date: 
Oct 07, 2008
      
      
      This is not a place for feeling "Brave" :-)  
      
      I only use screens in my gascolator but with the set up you have, the super
      gascolator, probably better than mine, I wouldn't bother with the filter
      before the pump.  The idea of using the PVC flange is a good one and if I
      have to drop something out the bottom of my plane I'll use that idea.  I was
      playing with the idea of a long wire on a bird for the ham 80 M band.  Just
      what the Kitfox needs ... more drag!
      
      My 912 has the old type problem prone ignition system.  Apparently it can be
      rebuilt to new specs.  I'm still waiting for some plumbing supplies to get
      the installation finished.  I'm still hoping to get some time in this fall
      before the ice forms on the ponds. 
      
      Noel
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
      Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 1:54 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain
      
      
      I use the filters mainly just to see what kind of crud, if any, I've  
      taken on in the fuel. I'd be nice (well, maybe not really) to see  
      that after stopping at Airport "X" that I got crud in the filters.  
      They are visible right over my shoulders. And with the valves just  
      before them in the line, they can be changed/cleaned very quickly.
      
      Yes, the header is down low behind the right seat, with the drain  
      just above the fabric. I glued a PVC plumbing flange onto the fabric  
      from the inside, and the drain sticks down into that. It kinda  
      stiffens the fabric at that point so the hole in the fabric doesn't  
      vibrate with the wind.
      
      The filter after the header, but before the fuel pump is a "just in  
      case filter" to keep any crud out of it.
      
      p.s. I just sent off one-half of my ignition system off for  
      analysis...semi-grounded for now...unless I feel brave.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are NOT go, and I'm  
      back to flying/testing/"guinea pigging"...damn it!
      
      
      On Oct 7, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn:
      >
      > I assume your header is before or upstream of your pump.   Do you  
      > have a
      > drain on the bottom of the header?  With a nice big gascolator like  
      > that why
      > bother with filters at all?
      >
      >
      > Noel
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn  
      > Matteson
      > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:21 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain
      >
      >
      > What I feel is best for 100LL is no drain valves, therefore no O
      > rings at that particular location, then teflon ball valves in the
      > down lines into Purolator glass in-line filters (the o-rings
      > contained therein have not leaked, swollen, or otherwise caused
      > problems in two years)  down into the header tank and then forward
      > into another glass in-line filter to protect the electric Facet fuel
      > pump. The header tank becomes the lowest point in the system,
      > therefore my "gascolator."  I wasn't using the fuel pump before, but
      > now that I've converted to gravity only, I use the boost pump for
      > take-off and climbout. Yesterday I switched off the pump at 1000'
      > AGL, and it continued to climb for another several seconds...didn't
      > record how long...until it started to stumble for lack of fuel. I
      > pushed the nose down, and even before the plane got to level, the
      > engine caught and ran on gravity feed alone. I then switched on the
      > pump just for security. I have shut off the pump and flown for 20
      > minutes in normal S & L attitude with the occasional slight climb,
      > just to mimic a normal day of flying, and haven't experienced any
      > lack of fuel to the engine, other than the steep climb I mentioned
      > earlier.
      >
      > With the pump on, and the plane pitched up and climbing at 1600
      > fpm....briefly...then at about 13-1400 fpm, the engine did not suffer
      > from fuel starvation.
      >
      > Lynn Matteson
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are NOT go, and I'm
      > back to flying/testing/"guinea pigging"...damn it!
      >
      >
      > On Oct 6, 2008, at 8:39 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> What is best for 100LL - I have the same problem and are
      >> continually replacing O'rings and valves.
      >>
      >> Regards
      >>
      >> Gary
      >>
      >> Gary Algate
      >> Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      >> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      >>
      >>
      >> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
      >> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
      >> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
      >> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
      >> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
      >> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
      >> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
      >> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _-
      >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
      >> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
      >> ===========================================================
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
Date: 
Oct 07, 2008
      
      
      Noel says,"The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      > sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has separated in
      > the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      
      Yes this happened - maybe two or three times out of a couple thousand 
      Kitfoxs.  I is interesting what folks will do after an incident or two.  One 
      of the threads after the Kreem separation and the clogging of the finger 
      strainers, was whether or not to remove the finger strainers - and some did 
      exactly that.  I repeat, it is interesting what folks do after hearing of an 
      incident.  For what it's worth, my old Model IV had Kreem, finger strainers, 
      filters down stream of the wing tanks, wing tank drains, and a gascollator. 
      The only place I found anything during a preflight was in the wing tanks, 
      and finger strainers at anual.  One significant wing tank find at annual 
      after removing the finger strainers was a chunk of rubber, consistant with a 
      piece broken off a fuel line presumably from a 100ll pump - during pump 
      maintenance?  Every drop of gas from the gas station went through a Mr. 
      Funnel.  The chunk of rubber was exactly the size it would take to enter the 
      fuel line and lodge itself right at a connector.  My new Model IV, exactly 
      the same minus the gascollator, most likely.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
      Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 9:18 AM
      Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      
      
      > Mine came in the plane.  I expect you can get them through Aviall , 
      > Leavens
      > (in Canada), Wicks Or even ACS.  The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      > sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has separated in
      > the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      >
      >
      > Noel
      >
      >
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
      > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:50 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >
      >
      > Noel - "finger strainers"? Where does one get those? I had to throw out 
      > what
      > I think you are talking about on the outlet of my wing tank - I foolishly
      > sloshed with it in and the Kreem did a great job of sealing the whole 
      > thing
      > water-tight. Live and learn.
      >
      >
      > Bob Brennan - N717GB
      >
      > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      >
      > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      >
      > Wrightsville Pa
      >
      >
      >  _____
      >
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
      > Sent: 06 October 2008 6:57 pm
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >
      > You remove the fuel drain to measure it.  The size refers to the part that
      > screws into the bottom of your tank.
      >
      >
      > I don't use any "filters" on my fuel supply they are too easy to block.  I
      > use finger strainers in the tanks ( no sloshing compound to come free) and 
      > a
      > gascolator with a fuel screen..  I drip my gascolator before every flight
      > and clean it every 25 hr.  50 hr. Would be ok.  My father had a much 
      > larger
      > engine in his C170B/LA-4 and they only got cleaned on the annual.
      >
      >
      > The other little reservoir is for the water pump/rotary valve shaft.  If 
      > you
      > haven't noticed it going down then all is well.  If the oil in it turns
      > milky your RV shaft seal is toast.  There are specific instructions for
      > bleeding the injector pump and the RV shaft in the Rotax Manuals available
      > from http://www.rotax-owner.com/  Check the tabs for engine manuals and
      > download your manual in pdf format for your engine.
      >
      >
      > Noel
      >
      >
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
      > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 7:22 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >
      >
      > Ok - showing my ignorance here...
      >
      >
      > The first picture is of the fuel drain for the wing tank which tends to 
      > leak
      > and needs replacing. I got as far as
      > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/safair.php but the CAV-110,
      > 160, 170, and 180 all look a lot like it. I know what an NPT thread is but
      > where is the 1/4" or 1/8" measurement taken? Or the other measurements?
      >
      >
      > Second picture is my fuel filter. Any suggestions on a replacement? 
      > Advance
      > Auto Parts or Manny Moe &Jack ok?
      >
      >
      > Third picture is the whats-it. Obviously a reservoir with some sort of
      > lubricant which hasn't gone down since I have owned the plane. Obviously
      > something I need to know about and service.
      >
      >
      > Bob Brennan - N717GB
      >
      > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      >
      > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      >
      > Wrightsville Pa
      >
      >
      > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
      > "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Fuel drain
Date: 
Oct 07, 2008
      
      
      Pre-flight check list? Absolutely! All of mine are on one sheet of  
      paper. I just re-wrote it to include the "fuel pump ON" notation at  
      'engine start' and 'before takeoff' sections. And of course, I've had  
      to up the allowable CHT temps after the recent probe location change,  
      which resulted in reported temps higher than what Jabiru reported  
      (because they didn't do it right, I like to think  : ) ). One of  
      these days I'll have it encased in plastic, but I never seem to be  
      absolutely sure that I'm done writing it. I'll pencil in stuff of  
      importance as I think of it/them, then print up a new one, then start  
      to pencil in new stuff on that one. Just like building the plane,  
      building the checklist is an ongoing process for me. I used one  
      checklist until it finally became two pieces....worn in half due to  
      the constant handling and folding.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 7, 2008, at 3:40 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn do you use lists???  I have a pre flight list, A pre start  
      > list, a pre
      > take off list, a pre landing list and a shutdown list. And of course a
      > loading list for putting the plane on the trailer...  it's on  
      > floats and I
      > have o trailer it to the pond every time I fly.  The pre take off  
      > and pre
      > landing lists are on my knee pad.
      >
      > Noel
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
Date: 
Oct 07, 2008
      
      
      I seem to recall thinking of removing the finger strainers until I  
      thought about what they provide, which is a very large area through  
      which fuel can flow without clogging the fuel line. Think of your  
      eavetroughs (sp?) as an example....you get some leaves at the  
      downspout and the thing is clogged. But put a big ol' dome of screen  
      over the top of the downspout, and the leaves still go there, but the  
      larger area lets the water get through in most cases. You still have  
      to clean it occasionally, but you never have to land your house in a  
      farmers' field because of clogged leaves....HUH? : )
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
      
      > 
      >
      > Noel says,"The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      >> sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has  
      >> separated in
      >> the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      >
      > Yes this happened - maybe two or three times out of a couple  
      > thousand Kitfoxs.  I is interesting what folks will do after an  
      > incident or two.  One of the threads after the Kreem separation and  
      > the clogging of the finger strainers, was whether or not to remove  
      > the finger strainers - and some did exactly that.  I repeat, it is  
      > interesting what folks do after hearing of an incident.  For what  
      > it's worth, my old Model IV had Kreem, finger strainers, filters  
      > down stream of the wing tanks, wing tank drains, and a gascollator.  
      > The only place I found anything during a preflight was in the wing  
      > tanks, and finger strainers at anual.  One significant wing tank  
      > find at annual after removing the finger strainers was a chunk of  
      > rubber, consistant with a piece broken off a fuel line presumably  
      > from a 100ll pump - during pump maintenance?  Every drop of gas  
      > from the gas station went through a Mr. Funnel.  The chunk of  
      > rubber was exactly the size it would take to enter the fuel line  
      > and lodge itself right at a connector.  My new Model IV, exactly  
      > the same minus the gascollator, most likely.
      >
      > Lowell
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
      > To: 
      > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 9:18 AM
      > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >
      >
      >> Mine came in the plane.  I expect you can get them through  
      >> Aviall , Leavens
      >> (in Canada), Wicks Or even ACS.  The reason I mentioned my tanks  
      >> are not
      >> sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has  
      >> separated in
      >> the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Noel
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob  
      >> Brennan
      >> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:50 PM
      >> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      >> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Noel - "finger strainers"? Where does one get those? I had to  
      >> throw out what
      >> I think you are talking about on the outlet of my wing tank - I  
      >> foolishly
      >> sloshed with it in and the Kreem did a great job of sealing the  
      >> whole thing
      >> water-tight. Live and learn.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Bob Brennan - N717GB
      >>
      >> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      >>
      >> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      >>
      >> Wrightsville Pa
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>  _____
      >>
      >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel  
      >> Loveys
      >> Sent: 06 October 2008 6:57 pm
      >> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      >> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >>
      >> You remove the fuel drain to measure it.  The size refers to the  
      >> part that
      >> screws into the bottom of your tank.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> I don't use any "filters" on my fuel supply they are too easy to  
      >> block.  I
      >> use finger strainers in the tanks ( no sloshing compound to come  
      >> free) and a
      >> gascolator with a fuel screen..  I drip my gascolator before every  
      >> flight
      >> and clean it every 25 hr.  50 hr. Would be ok.  My father had a  
      >> much larger
      >> engine in his C170B/LA-4 and they only got cleaned on the annual.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> The other little reservoir is for the water pump/rotary valve  
      >> shaft.  If you
      >> haven't noticed it going down then all is well.  If the oil in it  
      >> turns
      >> milky your RV shaft seal is toast.  There are specific  
      >> instructions for
      >> bleeding the injector pump and the RV shaft in the Rotax Manuals  
      >> available
      >> from http://www.rotax-owner.com/  Check the tabs for engine  
      >> manuals and
      >> download your manual in pdf format for your engine.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Noel
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob  
      >> Brennan
      >> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 7:22 PM
      >> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Ok - showing my ignorance here...
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> The first picture is of the fuel drain for the wing tank which  
      >> tends to leak
      >> and needs replacing. I got as far as
      >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/safair.php but the  
      >> CAV-110,
      >> 160, 170, and 180 all look a lot like it. I know what an NPT  
      >> thread is but
      >> where is the 1/4" or 1/8" measurement taken? Or the other  
      >> measurements?
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Second picture is my fuel filter. Any suggestions on a  
      >> replacement? Advance
      >> Auto Parts or Manny Moe &Jack ok?
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Third picture is the whats-it. Obviously a reservoir with some  
      >> sort of
      >> lubricant which hasn't gone down since I have owned the plane.  
      >> Obviously
      >> something I need to know about and service.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Bob Brennan - N717GB
      >>
      >> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      >>
      >> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      >>
      >> Wrightsville Pa
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// 
      >> www.matronhref
      >> "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// 
      >> www.matronics.com/c
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Ribs: Varnish vs Urethane vs Polyurethane
From: 
"jlfernan" <jlfernan(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: 
Oct 07, 2008
      
      
      I used two part epoxy varnish, very tedious. How many coats is recommended for
      wing ribs?
      
      --------
      Jorge Fernandez
      Supersport
      Fuselage/Forward Controls
      http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7849#207849
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Catz631(at)AOL.COM
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Biennial Flight ReviewBiennial Flight Review
      
      Bob,
        You do not need a gyro in your aircraft for the flight review.  It is not 
      required.You do need the flight review every two years.You would not  be legal
      
      to fly and your insurance would most likely not cover you.
       You could do it in your Kitfox,Champ,Cub or any other aircraft.
        I just gave a review in to a guy who owned a Cirrus last  week.(I have no 
      time in a Cirrus) Make sure you have the time and  endorsement marked in your 
      logbook.
                                                                 Dick Maddux
                                                                 Pensacola,Fl     
      
      
      **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
      Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!      
      (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001)
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Kreem chunks problem
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Tue, October 7, 2008 3:10 pm, Lowell Fitt wrote:
      >
      > Noel says,"The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      >> sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has separated in
      >> the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      >
      > Yes this happened - maybe two or three times out of a couple thousand
      > Kitfoxs.
      
      Lowell - seems like 10 years back or so on this list, I seem to recall more than
      a
      couple of times where people wanted to slosh the Fiberglas tanks because fuel was
      causing separation and leaking. Some just could not get the Kreem to stick well
      and
      you probably remember all the discussions about repeated sloshing with MEK to remove
      the Kreem. Some people thought the particular formulation of the Kreem was old
      and the
      newer formulations were fine. Some thought it was Ethanol or other oxygenated
      additives were causing the problem. In some cases it was thought that the Kreem
      wouldn't be successful if the tanks had been used with the offending gasoline long
      enough for the fuel to be absorbed somewhat in the Fiberglas. I was left with the
      impression that people that were successful sloshing did so on new and unused tanks
      with the most recent Kreem formulation. I could be wrong but it seemed to me like
      Kreem problems happened more than "two or three" times. Being the expert craftsman
      that you are, using Kreem was undoubtedly successful for you.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Kreem chunks problem
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      I sloshed my 11-year-old, previously unused tanks in 2005, and to  
      date have had no problem with using 100LL, with no more than 9  
      gallons...ever...of auto fuel being used. My exact entry into the  
      builder's log reads: " 1-11-05 to 1-18-05...Rinsed fuel tanks with  
      acetone. Sloshed tanks with Kreem. This was with the tanks already in  
      the wings...WHAT A BITCH!"
      (Trying to completely rotate a 12-foot wing inside an 11-foot-10"  
      ceiling will make you cuss.)
      
      So I think Paul is correct about the application of the Kreem....new  
      or very carefully cleaned tanks probably are the most successful. I  
      recall using 3 gallons of acetone...they are still in my shop marked  
      #1, #2, and #3, and I use the stuff occasionally for cleanup. I had  
      thought about draining the settled out stuff from the bottom of the  
      containers, but haven't got around to it yet....just for grins. I had  
      rinsed with the first gallon, saved it, used the second gallon, saved  
      it, and then the third gallon came out pretty clean, so I figured I  
      was finally done rinsing. Maybe if your tanks have already been used,  
      a 4th or even 5th gallon of rinse is in order. And I left the stuff  
      in there for hours at a time...then rotate...then more hours, etc.  
      Maybe that's why it took me a week to get the job done.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 8, 2008, at 7:53 AM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote:
      
      > 
      >
      >
      > On Tue, October 7, 2008 3:10 pm, Lowell Fitt wrote:
      >> 
      >>
      >> Noel says,"The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      >>> sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has  
      >>> separated in
      >>> the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      >>
      >> Yes this happened - maybe two or three times out of a couple thousand
      >> Kitfoxs.
      >
      > Lowell - seems like 10 years back or so on this list, I seem to  
      > recall more than a
      > couple of times where people wanted to slosh the Fiberglas tanks  
      > because fuel was
      > causing separation and leaking. Some just could not get the Kreem  
      > to stick well and
      > you probably remember all the discussions about repeated sloshing  
      > with MEK to remove
      > the Kreem. Some people thought the particular formulation of the  
      > Kreem was old and the
      > newer formulations were fine. Some thought it was Ethanol or other  
      > oxygenated
      > additives were causing the problem. In some cases it was thought  
      > that the Kreem
      > wouldn't be successful if the tanks had been used with the  
      > offending gasoline long
      > enough for the fuel to be absorbed somewhat in the Fiberglas. I was  
      > left with the
      > impression that people that were successful sloshing did so on new  
      > and unused tanks
      > with the most recent Kreem formulation. I could be wrong but it  
      > seemed to me like
      > Kreem problems happened more than "two or three" times. Being the  
      > expert craftsman
      > that you are, using Kreem was undoubtedly successful for you.
      >
      > -- 
      > Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      > PAF Consulting Engineers
      > Office 425.440.9505
      > Cell 425.241.1618
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Lowell:
      I expect it was a gasoline additive that caused the Kreeme to separate...
      Which additive?  With MOGAS there is no way to know.  The recipe for gas, in
      this area where we have around six months of winter and six months of hard
      sledding, changes almost every week.  Most of us may never know whatever it
      was that caused the Kreeme to separate.  Of course it is also possible that
      the application of the Kreeme was faulty.  BTW my tanks were not sloshed
      when I bought the plane.  
      
      I am surprised that you found a piece of rubber in one of your tanks as you
      use a Mr. Funnel.  I use a regular funnel with a felt liner to remove water.
      The finger strainers are there and my gascolator has a screen across the top
      of it so any dirt will stay in the bowl.  That screen is fine enough that
      once a blue moon it does catch the occasional hair from the felt.  I check
      my carb bowls on regular intervals and have never found so much as a hair in
      either of them.  
      
      Unfortunately, because you may be trapped into using higher concentrations
      of ethanol in your fuel, the primary job of the gascolator separating water
      from the fuel, will not be done by that piece of equipment.  So I can
      certainly see why carrying the weight and extra complexity of having a
      gascolator is not warranted in that case.  However, if you run 100LL, then
      at least the gascolator will give you a low point to drip your fuel system.
      
      As for fuel filters... some like 'em, some not.  If you have them keep them
      clean and change them at regular intervals.  If you don't have them make
      sure you do at least have screens in the fuel system.
      
      As  you can guess some of the comments above are not directed at you Lowell
      but to other readers of the thread.  I know  you have enough experience to
      make good decisions for your locale but I do enjoy the discussion.
      
      Noel
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
      Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:41 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      
      
      Noel says,"The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      > sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has separated in
      > the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      
      Yes this happened - maybe two or three times out of a couple thousand 
      Kitfoxs.  I is interesting what folks will do after an incident or two.  One
      
      of the threads after the Kreem separation and the clogging of the finger 
      strainers, was whether or not to remove the finger strainers - and some did 
      exactly that.  I repeat, it is interesting what folks do after hearing of an
      
      incident.  For what it's worth, my old Model IV had Kreem, finger strainers,
      
      filters down stream of the wing tanks, wing tank drains, and a gascollator. 
      The only place I found anything during a preflight was in the wing tanks, 
      and finger strainers at anual.  One significant wing tank find at annual 
      after removing the finger strainers was a chunk of rubber, consistant with a
      
      piece broken off a fuel line presumably from a 100ll pump - during pump 
      maintenance?  Every drop of gas from the gas station went through a Mr. 
      Funnel.  The chunk of rubber was exactly the size it would take to enter the
      
      fuel line and lodge itself right at a connector.  My new Model IV, exactly 
      the same minus the gascollator, most likely.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
      Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 9:18 AM
      Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      
      
      > Mine came in the plane.  I expect you can get them through Aviall , 
      > Leavens
      > (in Canada), Wicks Or even ACS.  The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      > sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has separated in
      > the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      >
      >
      > Noel
      >
      >
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
      > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:50 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >
      >
      > Noel - "finger strainers"? Where does one get those? I had to throw out 
      > what
      > I think you are talking about on the outlet of my wing tank - I foolishly
      > sloshed with it in and the Kreem did a great job of sealing the whole 
      > thing
      > water-tight. Live and learn.
      >
      >
      > Bob Brennan - N717GB
      >
      > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      >
      > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      >
      > Wrightsville Pa
      >
      >
      >  _____
      >
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
      > Sent: 06 October 2008 6:57 pm
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >
      > You remove the fuel drain to measure it.  The size refers to the part that
      > screws into the bottom of your tank.
      >
      >
      > I don't use any "filters" on my fuel supply they are too easy to block.  I
      > use finger strainers in the tanks ( no sloshing compound to come free) and
      
      > a
      > gascolator with a fuel screen..  I drip my gascolator before every flight
      > and clean it every 25 hr.  50 hr. Would be ok.  My father had a much 
      > larger
      > engine in his C170B/LA-4 and they only got cleaned on the annual.
      >
      >
      > The other little reservoir is for the water pump/rotary valve shaft.  If 
      > you
      > haven't noticed it going down then all is well.  If the oil in it turns
      > milky your RV shaft seal is toast.  There are specific instructions for
      > bleeding the injector pump and the RV shaft in the Rotax Manuals available
      > from http://www.rotax-owner.com/  Check the tabs for engine manuals and
      > download your manual in pdf format for your engine.
      >
      >
      > Noel
      >
      >
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
      > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 7:22 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain, fuel filter, and a whatsit
      >
      >
      > Ok - showing my ignorance here...
      >
      >
      > The first picture is of the fuel drain for the wing tank which tends to 
      > leak
      > and needs replacing. I got as far as
      > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/safair.php but the CAV-110,
      > 160, 170, and 180 all look a lot like it. I know what an NPT thread is but
      > where is the 1/4" or 1/8" measurement taken? Or the other measurements?
      >
      >
      > Second picture is my fuel filter. Any suggestions on a replacement? 
      > Advance
      > Auto Parts or Manny Moe &Jack ok?
      >
      >
      > Third picture is the whats-it. Obviously a reservoir with some sort of
      > lubricant which hasn't gone down since I have owned the plane. Obviously
      > something I need to know about and service.
      >
      >
      > Bob Brennan - N717GB
      >
      > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      >
      > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      >
      > Wrightsville Pa
      >
      >
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
      > "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Fuel drain
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      Lynn:
      
      
      I print my lists on the confuser.  Generally I will use a spreadsheet
      program.  Then I laminate them with clear binding tape...  the 1.5-2 in
      stuff.  I apply the tape on both sides of each sheet to make it water proof.
      A good idea for float planes.  The binding tape can be marked on with normal
      water based markers and wiped clear with a damp cloth.  I figure the average
      small roll of tape available at the local drug store will do about a million
      sheets of paper... Ok that's a slight exaggeration.  I did the same thing
      with my W&B sheet.  We're supposed to carry one with us.  I did out a W&B
      sheet for my plane with the regular data printed in.  The blanks that I have
      to fill in I have some 3M magic tape over the binding tape.  I can write on
      the "Magic" tape with a pencil and erase it several times before peeling off
      the "magic" tape and applying fresh.  I do the same thing on my dead
      reckoning computer.  The screen that you are supposed to draw you vector
      line on I put a small piece of tape with a tab for easy removal.  Then I
      draw my line on the tape.  That allows me to use a ball point if nothing
      else is around.
      
      
      One other thing I try to print the sheets a size that will easily clip to my
      knee board.
      
      
      Like yourself my check sheets last until the next time I find something I
      think should be on it. 
      
      
      Sigtaturea
      
      
      Noel Loveys
      
      Campbellton, NL, Canada
      
      CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
      
      C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
      
      Aerocet 1100 floats
      
      noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
      Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:52 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel drain
      
      
      Pre-flight check list? Absolutely! All of mine are on one sheet of  
      
      paper. I just re-wrote it to include the "fuel pump ON" notation at  
      
      'engine start' and 'before takeoff' sections. And of course, I've had  
      
      to up the allowable CHT temps after the recent probe location change,  
      
      which resulted in reported temps higher than what Jabiru reported  
      
      (because they didn't do it right, I like to think  : ) ). One of  
      
      these days I'll have it encased in plastic, but I never seem to be  
      
      absolutely sure that I'm done writing it. I'll pencil in stuff of  
      
      importance as I think of it/them, then print up a new one, then start  
      
      to pencil in new stuff on that one. Just like building the plane,  
      
      building the checklist is an ongoing process for me. I used one  
      
      checklist until it finally became two pieces....worn in half due to  
      
      the constant handling and folding.
      
      
      Lynn Matteson
      
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Kreem chunks problem
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Hi Paul,
      
      Noel mentioned that the reason he hasn't Kreemed the wing tanks was because 
      of the issue of Kreem coming loose and blocking the finger strainers.  I can 
      recall only one instance that I am aware of when that happened.  Granted 
      there are tons of Kitfoxes out there without list affiliation, but I doubt 
      there were many instances of Kreem problems, because back then, the factory 
      was very keen on posting Service Bulletins if it determined there were 
      issues.  There is one Service Bulletin regarding an unnamed sloshing 
      compound coming loose in an aluminum header tank.  In the search list it is 
      erroneosly dated 1999 covering the general time span of the LV Howell 
      instance, but the date on the Denney bulletin is 1991.  The LV Howell 
      instance was on one of the early Alaska adventures. 
      http://www.sportflight.com/alaska/KingEpilogMain.htm  Check day eleven. 
      There may have been others where flaking occurred, but I am not aware of 
      other total blockages from loose Kreem or other instances where large pieces 
      came out - 8X8". I mentioned two or three to be a tad liberal.   As Lynn 
      suggested, it may have been due to poorly prepared internal surfaces.
      
      The reason for my post is pretty much as you mention.  It caused a real 
      firestorm, so to speak.  Many seemed to become Kreem phobic and took great 
      lengths to either reslosh or remove it.  Others just added it to their 
      prefight and went on flying.  I have been on flights of ten with friends to 
      the Idaho back country.  None of these guys are on the list, and none with 
      Kreem issues and none concerned with Kreem.  And most of them with Kitfoxes 
      from the Kreem issue era.  I just wonder how many of the resloshers actually 
      had issues with the Kreem.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 4:53 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kreem chunks problem
      
      
      > 
      >
      >
      > On Tue, October 7, 2008 3:10 pm, Lowell Fitt wrote:
      >>
      >> Noel says,"The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      >>> sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has separated 
      >>> in
      >>> the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      >>
      >> Yes this happened - maybe two or three times out of a couple thousand
      >> Kitfoxs.
      >
      > Lowell - seems like 10 years back or so on this list, I seem to recall 
      > more than a
      > couple of times where people wanted to slosh the Fiberglas tanks because 
      > fuel was
      > causing separation and leaking. Some just could not get the Kreem to stick 
      > well and
      > you probably remember all the discussions about repeated sloshing with MEK 
      > to remove
      > the Kreem. Some people thought the particular formulation of the Kreem was 
      > old and the
      > newer formulations were fine. Some thought it was Ethanol or other 
      > oxygenated
      > additives were causing the problem. In some cases it was thought that the 
      > Kreem
      > wouldn't be successful if the tanks had been used with the offending 
      > gasoline long
      > enough for the fuel to be absorbed somewhat in the Fiberglas. I was left 
      > with the
      > impression that people that were successful sloshing did so on new and 
      > unused tanks
      > with the most recent Kreem formulation. I could be wrong but it seemed to 
      > me like
      > Kreem problems happened more than "two or three" times. Being the expert 
      > craftsman
      > that you are, using Kreem was undoubtedly successful for you.
      >
      > -- 
      > Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      > PAF Consulting Engineers
      > Office 425.440.9505
      > Cell 425.241.1618
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Fuel drain
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      I use the "confuser" printer too, printing on a half-sheet of 8.5 x  
      11. I hadn't thought of using wide tape for the lamination  
      process...thanks for the tip...saves me a trip to the lamination store.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 8, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      > Lynn:
      >
      >
      > I print my lists on the confuser.  Generally I will use a  
      > spreadsheet program.  Then I laminate them with clear binding  
      > tape...  the 1.5-2 in stuff.
      >
      > Noel Loveys
      >
      > Campbellton, NL, Canada
      >
      > CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
      >
      > C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
      >
      > Aerocet 1100 floats
      >
      > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Throttle springs
From: 
"Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Hi:
      
      I'm new here, having just purchased a Kitfox IV Speedster with a Rotax 912UL. 
      
      
      The throttle springs are set to open the throttle in the event of a linkage failure.
      OK, but the springs are so strong that they pull the cable right past the
      ratchet in a vernier throttle.  I'm using a collet type throttle, but as soon
      as I loosen the collet, the springs try to pull the throttle out of my hand.
      
      Is there a lighter spring available?  What have you done and where did you get
      the springs?
      
      Jim Feldmann
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      912UL  N629JB
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7923#207923
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
Subject: 
Mr Funnel for MoGas not airport 100LL
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Wed, October 8, 2008 8:16 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      > I am surprised that you found a piece of rubber in one of your tanks as you
      > use a Mr. Funnel.
      
      The way I intyerpret what he said is; he uses that funnel every single time he
      puts in
      MoGas from, I presume, gas cans. He doesn't use the filter funnel at airports when
      filling with 100LL so that's how he knows he got the piece of gasket or O-ring
      from an
      airport filling, not from using MoGas.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"floran higgins" <cliffh(at)outdrs.net>
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      I bought lighter springs from the local Ace Hardware store.
      
      Floran Higgins
      Helena, Mt
      Speedster
      912 ULS
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 11:25 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Throttle springs
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Hi:
      >
      > I'm new here, having just purchased a Kitfox IV Speedster with a Rotax 
      > 912UL.
      >
      > The throttle springs are set to open the throttle in the event of a 
      > linkage failure.  OK, but the springs are so strong that they pull the 
      > cable right past the ratchet in a vernier throttle.  I'm using a collet 
      > type throttle, but as soon as I loosen the collet, the springs try to pull 
      > the throttle out of my hand.
      >
      > Is there a lighter spring available?  What have you done and where did you 
      > get the springs?
      >
      > Jim Feldmann
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > 912UL  N629JB
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7923#207923
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Jim,
      
      The way I did mine in order not to overide the safety issue, is to put a 
      counter acting spring between the bellcrand behind the panel and the panel. 
      I experimented with springs until I found one that almost perfectly matched 
      the throttle springs.  Others have used softer springs on the carbs.  I 
      think most were hardware store variety springs.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:25 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Throttle springs
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Hi:
      >
      > I'm new here, having just purchased a Kitfox IV Speedster with a Rotax 
      > 912UL.
      >
      > The throttle springs are set to open the throttle in the event of a 
      > linkage failure.  OK, but the springs are so strong that they pull the 
      > cable right past the ratchet in a vernier throttle.  I'm using a collet 
      > type throttle, but as soon as I loosen the collet, the springs try to pull 
      > the throttle out of my hand.
      >
      > Is there a lighter spring available?  What have you done and where did you 
      > get the springs?
      >
      > Jim Feldmann
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > 912UL  N629JB
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7923#207923
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Ed Gray" <egraylaw(at)swbell.net>
Subject: 
Leading edge
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      Needing advice or input about leading edge.
      
      
      Now building KF II and about to cover wings.  I have installed the new
      plastic leading edge cuff and intend to cover the upper leading wing surface
      with aluminum over the upper false ribs.  The alum. Is 12 inches wide and
      will butt against the leading edge cuff, epoxied and riveted to the ribs and
      spar, and covered with ceconite.  My concern is the potential of oil-canning
      or ripples due to wing flexing.  The purpose is to smooth the leading edge.
      The weight penalty is six pounds (maybe less since less finish will be
      needed).   I plan on segmenting the aluminum material at alternate ribs to
      avoid oil-canning.  Either cut the material completely or slit it from 2
      inches behind leading edge through the trailing edge with a saw kerf.
      
      
      So, all you engineers (pro or otherwise), please think this over and post
      your input or advice.  Also, my fuel system plan is each six gallon wing
      tank routed to the alum. 1.1 gallon header tank mounted behind the right
      seat, which feeds into a facet pump under right seat then to the supplied
      cutoff valve below the throttle cable, then to the gascolater on the lower
      right front side of firewall, then up to the impulse pump on the firewall
      and out to the bing carbs on the 582.  Vapor return line from the alum
      header back to the right wing tank.  The left tank will have a fuel valve on
      the headrack, so I can isolate the two tanks and only fuel the right side
      for short flights.  Plan to use the Facet on takeoff and steep climb, per
      Lynn Mattesen.  Anyone see problems with my plan?  Thanks for advice.  Do
      not archive. 
      
      
      Ed Gray, Dallas, KFII No. 705, 582 grayhead, GSC 3 blade
      
      
      PS I have a backpack emergency chute to wear while I test the plane.  I have
      jumped before, but does anybody know someone who has bailed out of a Kitfox,
      ie. Any problem getting the door open or clearing the lift strut?
      egraylaw(at)swbell.net
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Morissette" <brianm(at)snolab.ca>
Subject: 
Throttle springs
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Hi
      I added a spring the same way as Lowell and it is working fine. When the
      throttle lock is depressed there is a very slight opening of the throttle
      but nothing like before.
      Purchased the spring at a local hardware store
      Brian
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
      Sent: October 8, 2008 2:44 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Throttle springs
      
      
      Jim,
      
      The way I did mine in order not to overide the safety issue, is to put a
      counter acting spring between the bellcrand behind the panel and the panel. 
      I experimented with springs until I found one that almost perfectly matched
      the throttle springs.  Others have used softer springs on the carbs.  I
      think most were hardware store variety springs.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:25 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Throttle springs
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Hi:
      >
      > I'm new here, having just purchased a Kitfox IV Speedster with a Rotax 
      > 912UL.
      >
      > The throttle springs are set to open the throttle in the event of a 
      > linkage failure.  OK, but the springs are so strong that they pull the 
      > cable right past the ratchet in a vernier throttle.  I'm using a collet 
      > type throttle, but as soon as I loosen the collet, the springs try to pull
      
      > the throttle out of my hand.
      >
      > Is there a lighter spring available?  What have you done and where did you
      
      > get the springs?
      >
      > Jim Feldmann
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > 912UL  N629JB
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7923#207923
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Larry Huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: 
Re:    Another Throttle springs problem
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Larry Huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: 
test
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      =======AVGMAIL-48ED21610000=======--
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Fuel drain
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      Thanks John - I'll give the viton a try
      
      Gary
      
      Gary Algate
      Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Leading edge
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Wed, October 8, 2008 12:25 pm, Ed Gray wrote:
      > Needing advice or input about leading edge.
      
      > Now building KF II and about to cover wings.  I have installed the new
      > plastic leading edge cuff and intend to cover the upper leading wing surface
      > with aluminum over the upper false ribs.  The alum. Is 12 inches wide and
      > will butt against the leading edge cuff, epoxied and riveted to the ribs and
      > spar, and covered with ceconite.
      
      Ceconite? Really? Not using Poly-Fiber? It's been a while since I compared them
      but
      what's recorded in my head is not more than my conclusion and that was that Poly-Fiber
      a better choice.
      
      <http://www.polyfiber.com/stits/index.htm>
      
      It's lighter, won't support combustion and is more easily repairable.
      
      As to the Aluminum idea, customizations can look very nice but every ounce you
      can
      save in weight is one that you'll wish you had more of when you get to flying.
      It's
      extra work, extra cost, extra weight and doing so is bound to extend the time before
      you start flying. Even with your ideas for preventing "oil canning", you can't
      be
      certain of that without some pretty complex modeling or field trials. Also you're
      bound to introduce bending stress concentrations at the relief joints where the
      design
      was intended for a uniformly distrubuted load.
      
      > PS I have a backpack emergency chute to wear while I test the plane.  I have
      > jumped before, but does anybody know someone who has bailed out of a Kitfox,
      > ie. Any problem getting the door open or clearing the lift strut?
      > egraylaw(at)swbell.net
      
      If you're able to escape and you're high enough above ground, then that would work.
      But you'd surely lose your aircraft. Using a BRS ballistic parachute, achieves
      nearly
      instantaneous deployment and would likely save you and the plane.
      
      Some history
      <http://www.brsparachutes.com/About+BRS/BRS+History/default.aspx>
      
      contact them to find the current cost and the weight.
      <http://www.brsparachutes.com/Contact+Us/default.aspx>
      
      Then tell us what you have decided. I'm going to put one in my Merlin GT because
      I'm
      just not at all certain about what will happen when being pulled by a Rotax 914.
      That's more engine than has been used on any I know, although using a 912 is common.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
From: 
"Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Just got back from the hanger and I took a picture of the linkage I am talking
      about.  It seems like that is an awful lot of spring just to open the throttle
      in case of a linkage failure.  Not sure I would like to see what happens if the
      linkage only fails on one side either.
      
      The main problems though are the difficulty in holding a specific throttle setting
      during approach, and the fact that the throttle creeps open during cruise.
      
      Jim
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7968#207968
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf1265_171.jpg
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Sorry to be picky=2C but it looks like the choke cable could use some atten
      tion also.  Jim Chuk   Kitfox 4 building  Avid MK IV flying Mn> Subject: Ki
      tfox-List: Re: Throttle springs> From: feldesign(at)earthlink.net> Date: Wed
      List message posted by: "Jim Feldmann" > > Just go
      t back from the hanger and I took a picture of the linkage I am talking abo
      ut. It seems like that is an awful lot of spring just to open the throttle 
      in case of a linkage failure. Not sure I would like to see what happens if 
      the linkage only fails on one side either.> > The main problems though are 
      the difficulty in holding a specific throttle setting during approach=2C an
      d the fact that the throttle creeps open during cruise.> > Jim> > > > > Rea
      d this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=
      207968#207968> > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/
      ==============> > > 
      _________________________________________________________________
      See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part
       of your life.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Leading edge
      
      At 12:25 PM 10/8/2008, you wrote:
      
      >I have installed the new plastic leading edge cuff and intend to 
      >cover the upper leading wing surface with aluminum over the upper false ribs.
      
      Do you mean you have installed the PVC leading edge from a IV onto a 
      II? Or is there some other leading edge treatment for a II I am not 
      aware of? (I thought they used the aluminum tube as the leading edge.)
      
      >The alum. Is 12 inches wide and will butt against the leading edge 
      >cuff, epoxied and riveted to the ribs and spar, and covered with 
      >ceconite.  My concern is the potential of oil-canning or ripples due 
      >to wing flexing.
      
      A reasonable concern, considering how much flex I see when I fly. If 
      I were you I would definitely hang the plane by the tips before 
      covering and jump up and down on the fuselage while observing the top 
      skin. It should be pretty obvious if there's going to be a problem.
      
      >then to the gascolater on the lower right front side of firewall,
      
      Well the gascolator won't do much, and certainly won't pick up any 
      water, since the height of the valve precludes any water reaching it 
      from the tanks. You also didn't mention filters, which are a good 
      idea and a topic of much previous discussion, (hint, hint,) here. I 
      have been flying a similar configuration 300 hours without any aux 
      pump, and with a race car filter. I do, however, rebuild the fuel 
      pump every year.
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
From: 
"Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      No, no...  picky is good.  :D  
      
      What did you see about the choke linkage that bothers you?
      
      Jim
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7987#207987
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Leading edge
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Hi Ed
      
      I am currently doing just as you propose.  First, regarding the leading 
      edge,  I had someone come into my hangar as I was working on the first wing, 
      and mentioned that he had spoken to Harry Riblet about the Kitfox wing.  I 
      can't recall who it was, unfortunately.  Mr. Riblet said that the biggest 
      problem with the Kitfox design was that the most critical portion of the 
      airfoil was the initial 10% of chord on the upper surface.  That is the 
      first five inches on our wing.  That is where the fabric on the typical 
      Kitfox wing dips down behind the forward spar between the ribs and false 
      ribs.  In talking to others, I suppose the major performance benefit, if 
      there is in fact such a thing, would be near stall where flow separation 
      starts  - maybe reducing stall speed.  Cruise, don't know, but laminar flow 
      should be improved.
      
      I have done one wing and there are some tricks.  Some I solved and others I 
      guessed at with proof after flight.  Regarding oil canning, a possibility, I 
      suppose, but there are lots of airplanes out there with aluminum leading 
      edge - Rans for example.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Ed Gray" <egraylaw(at)swbell.net>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 12:25 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Leading edge
      
      
      > Needing advice or input about leading edge.
      >
      >
      > Now building KF II and about to cover wings.  I have installed the new
      > plastic leading edge cuff and intend to cover the upper leading wing 
      > surface
      > with aluminum over the upper false ribs.  The alum. Is 12 inches wide and
      > will butt against the leading edge cuff, epoxied and riveted to the ribs 
      > and
      > spar, and covered with ceconite.  My concern is the potential of 
      > oil-canning
      > or ripples due to wing flexing.  The purpose is to smooth the leading 
      > edge.
      > The weight penalty is six pounds (maybe less since less finish will be
      > needed).   I plan on segmenting the aluminum material at alternate ribs to
      > avoid oil-canning.  Either cut the material completely or slit it from 2
      > inches behind leading edge through the trailing edge with a saw kerf.
      >
      >
      > So, all you engineers (pro or otherwise), please think this over and post
      > your input or advice.  Also, my fuel system plan is each six gallon wing
      > tank routed to the alum. 1.1 gallon header tank mounted behind the right
      > seat, which feeds into a facet pump under right seat then to the supplied
      > cutoff valve below the throttle cable, then to the gascolater on the lower
      > right front side of firewall, then up to the impulse pump on the firewall
      > and out to the bing carbs on the 582.  Vapor return line from the alum
      > header back to the right wing tank.  The left tank will have a fuel valve 
      > on
      > the headrack, so I can isolate the two tanks and only fuel the right side
      > for short flights.  Plan to use the Facet on takeoff and steep climb, per
      > Lynn Mattesen.  Anyone see problems with my plan?  Thanks for advice.  Do
      > not archive.
      >
      >
      > Ed Gray, Dallas, KFII No. 705, 582 grayhead, GSC 3 blade
      >
      >
      > PS I have a backpack emergency chute to wear while I test the plane.  I 
      > have
      > jumped before, but does anybody know someone who has bailed out of a 
      > Kitfox,
      > ie. Any problem getting the door open or clearing the lift strut?
      > egraylaw(at)swbell.net
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      Oops.....another reason that one carb is maybe a better way to go in  
      engines. I hadn't thought about you guys with the two carbs, and a  
      runaway bank of cylinders. That sure changes the "get her home"  
      tactic of controlling rpm with the key switch. Does anybody out there  
      run  Aerocarbs on Rotax's? That has no bearing on the topic, but I'm  
      curious.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 8, 2008, at 6:31 PM, Jim Feldmann wrote:
      
      
      > Not sure I would like to see what happens if the linkage only fails  
      > on one side either.
      >
      > The main problems though are the difficulty in holding a specific  
      > throttle setting during approach, and the fact that the throttle  
      > creeps open during cruise.
      >
      > Jim
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Leading edge
Date: 
Oct 08, 2008
      
      
      On Oct 8, 2008, at 12:25 PM, "Ed Gray"  wrote:
      
      > Needing advice or input about leading edge.
      >
      I'm really intrigued by this new composite leading edge John McBean  
      announced the other day. I'd be inclined to wait and see how that  
      works out and what they end up charging for it.
      
      Mike G.
      N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
      Phoenix, AZ
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Looked to me like some of the strands on the choke cable were broke off whe
      re the screw holds the cabel to the choke lever.   Take care=2C  Jim Chuk  
      Kitfox 4 building  Mn> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Throttle springs> From: fe
      ldesign(at)earthlink.net> Date: Wed=2C 8 Oct 2008 17:47:21 -0700> To: kitfox-l
      design(at)earthlink.net>> > No=2C no... picky is good. :D > > What did you see
       about the choke linkage that bothers you?> > Jim> > > > > Read this topic 
      online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7987#207987
      ==========> > > 
      _________________________________________________________________
      Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie
      .
      http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5
      50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Leading edge : best and most amusing test procedure
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Wed, October 8, 2008 5:09 pm, Guy Buchanan wrote:
      
      > A reasonable concern, considering how much flex I see when I fly. If
      > I were you I would definitely hang the plane by the tips before
      > covering and jump up and down on the fuselage while observing the top
      > skin. It should be pretty obvious if there's going to be a problem.
      
      That ought do to it alright! :) Should be a cartoon showing this!
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Mr Funnel for MoGas not airport 100LL
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Long ago, when the earth was green and we had several grades of aviation
      gas, we also used to pump our gas into the planes.  In those days we used a
      felt in a funnel to fill the wing tanks.  Of course there were 90 gallon
      (Imp) barrels cached all over the place and everyone flying carried a hand
      pump.  The idea was as long as we carried the funnel and felt we may as well
      use it.  It is surprising how small the droplets of water in contaminated
      fuel are that get caught in a felt.
      Fast forward a few decades and all the small commercial planes I worked on,
      all had well used funnels, plastic now, with equally well used felts.  I
      guess that is the reason I assumed that Lowell would have used the funnel
      all the time.  Yes, using a funnel makes fuelling the plane a little longer.
      We always refuelled after a flight as that will help keep down condensation.
      Because I tow my plane after every flight I have to do the opposite... I
      defuel the plane to keep my wings lighter.
      One other thing I always do is to wait twenty minutes after fuelling a plane
      before starting the engine.  This gives any water in the fuel a chance to
      settle out and be drained off the sumps.  A few years ago a fellow spun his
      Lake, not sure if it was a 4 or a Musketeer, into the pavement at
      Stephenville airport (CYJT) The investigation determined his engine stalled
      on takeoff because of water in the fuel.  Friends who were at the airport
      that day said he flew in, no problems refuelled from the pumps and
      immediately tried to take off.  There was some water found in the
      underground tanks...  We figure the rest of the water was found in the a
      plane. 
      
      Noel
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul A. Franz,
      P.E.
      Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 3:10 PM
      Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mr Funnel for MoGas not airport 100LL
      
      
      
      
      On Wed, October 8, 2008 8:16 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      > I am surprised that you found a piece of rubber in one of your tanks as
      you
      > use a Mr. Funnel.
      
      The way I intyerpret what he said is; he uses that funnel every single time
      he puts in
      MoGas from, I presume, gas cans. He doesn't use the filter funnel at
      airports when
      filling with 100LL so that's how he knows he got the piece of gasket or
      O-ring from an
      airport filling, not from using MoGas.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Throttle springs and HS adjustment
From: 
"larry huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com>
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Hi Folks,
        I have a different problem with a throttle spring. I am working on a 
      Kitfox 2 (N815TL) with a 582 Rotax and 2 Bing carburetors.The aircraft has 
      over 500 hours and is on at least its third owner. He wants to learn to fly 
      on this bird,so I am concerned about getting everything right.
        I am familiar with Kitfox . I built a  4-1200 / Soob on which I have 
      500hrs.
        On the model 2 the spring(s) is quite strong and pulls to CLOSE the 
      throttle. In case of a failure of the throttle cable, it seems that it would 
      shut the engine down. Is this the normal situation for this aircraft? I know 
      absolutely nothing about Rotax engines so any help will be beneficial. This 
      plane has a vernier throttle( which I don't care for) and the spring is 
      strong enough to make the vernier difficult to manage. I have flown the 
      plane only once. It seems to be a fine aircraft.
        The other problem with this model 2 is the elevator. It is in the bottom 
      of two holes at the leading edge. In flight the stick is much farther 
      forward than in any other aircraft I have flown. If you line up the elevator 
      and the horizontal stabilizer on the ground,this stick is in what feels like 
      a more normal position. This means that in flight the elevator must be well 
      into the down position. The owner says the seller had taken him for a ride 
      in the plane,so he must have been flying it like this. Don't know how many 
      of the 500 hours he put on it.
        Sorry to be so long-winded,but wanted to give enough info to be able to 
      get some logical responses.
         Thank you for any help.           Larry Huntley - KF 4-1200 - Soob 
      EA81 -AMAX redrive - Warp Drive prop    N234EE     506 HRS
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8045#208045
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
From: 
"Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Thanks Jim, I will check all cables for broken strands.
      
      Jim
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8048#208048
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs and HS adjustment
From: 
"Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      larry huntley wrote:
      > Hi Folks,
      >   I have a different problem with a throttle spring. I am working on a 
      > Kitfox 2 (N815TL) with a 582 Rotax and 2 Bing carburetors.The aircraft has 
      > over 500 hours and is on at least its third owner. He wants to learn to fly 
      > on this bird,so I am concerned about getting everything right.
      >   I am familiar with Kitfox . I built a  4-1200 / Soob on which I have 
      > 500hrs.
      >   On the model 2 the spring(s) is quite strong and pulls to CLOSE the 
      > throttle. In case of a failure of the throttle cable, it seems that it would
      
      > shut the engine down. Is this the normal situation for this aircraft? I know
      
      > absolutely nothing about Rotax engines so any help will be beneficial. This 
      > plane has a vernier throttle( which I don't care for) and the spring is 
      > strong enough to make the vernier difficult to manage. I have flown the 
      > plane only once. It seems to be a fine aircraft.
      >   The other problem with this model 2 is the elevator. It is in the bottom 
      > of two holes at the leading edge. In flight the stick is much farther 
      > forward than in any other aircraft I have flown. If you line up the elevator
      
      > and the horizontal stabilizer on the ground,this stick is in what feels like
      
      > a more normal position. This means that in flight the elevator must be well 
      > into the down position. The owner says the seller had taken him for a ride 
      > in the plane,so he must have been flying it like this. Don't know how many 
      > of the 500 hours he put on it.
      >   Sorry to be so long-winded,but wanted to give enough info to be able to 
      > get some logical responses.
      >    Thank you for any help.           Larry Huntley - KF 4-1200 - Soob 
      > EA81 -AMAX redrive - Warp Drive prop    N234EE     506 HRS
      
      
      Larry,
      The throttle system you describe is normal for the Rotax two strokes.  The cables
      are pretty robust.  I do not know of any failures in flight.  I have and prefer
      a friction type throttle.  I don't like the vernier either.
      
      That Horizontal stab/stick/elevator position is odd.
      
      Two things come to mind.  An adverse aft center of gravity and/or the flaperon
      rigging is out of wack.  Did you have to hold forward pressure on the stick for
      level flight?
      
      --------
      Tom Jones
      Classic IV
      503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
      Ellensburg, WA
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8060#208060
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs and HS adjustment
      
      
      At 08:07 AM 10/9/2008, you wrote:
      >On the model 2 the spring(s) is quite strong and pulls to CLOSE the
      >throttle. In case of a failure of the throttle cable, it seems that it would
      >shut the engine down. Is this the normal situation for this aircraft?
      
      Yes and no. I have a big spring inside the cabin that offsets the 
      carb springs so I have no load on the vernier. Ideally you should 
      have it set up so the carbs go full throttle in case of breakage, but 
      there's no way to do that with the motorcycle carbs on the 582.
      
      >  In flight the stick is much farther
      >forward than in any other aircraft I have flown.
      
      Possibly a seriously aft CG. I'd check it. Also make sure the 
      flaperons aren't reflexed up, as they are used for trim on the model II.
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Model IV pre-formed windshield
From: 
"Giovanni Day" <thedays(at)mchsi.com>
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      I am wondering what kind of luck people are having with the Model IV pre-formed
      windshield. Specifically scratch resistance, crazing and cracking.
      
      Thanks
      
      --------
      _______________________________________
      Giovanni Day
      Model 4 speedster 912
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8065#208065
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Never got a chance to try mine out=2C the guy I bought my kit from had boug
      ht the preformed windshield in 1994 when he bought the kit.  Paid about $35
      0 for it also.  After I had the butt and center ribs on the fusaloge=2C I t
      ook the windshield and set it up in place.  I walke around  the plane and l
      ifted up the font corner of the windshield about an inch to move it just a 
      bit and I heard a little snap.  No real pressure on it it or anything=2C bu
      t it had cracked right where it makes the sharpest bend.  What a waste of m
      oney.  It had sat in the big box it came in=2C maybe it was brittle because
       of it's age=2C I don't know.  So far I have cut some pieces out of it and 
      heat formed some wingtip light lens caps.  It seems to work for that.  I wo
      uld just get the lexan if it was me and make my own windshield.  Jim Chuk  
      Kitfox 4 building.  Mn> Subject: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshiel
      d> From: thedays(at)mchsi.com> Date: Thu=2C 9 Oct 2008 10:32:59 -0700> To: kit
       > > I am wondering what kind of luck people are having 
      with the Model IV pre-formed windshield. Specifically scratch resistance=2C
       crazing and cracking.> > Thanks> > --------> _____________________________
      __________> Giovanni Day> Model 4 speedster 912> > > > > Read this topic on
      line here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8065#208065> 
      ==========> > > 
      _________________________________________________________________
      See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part
       of your life.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"floran higgins" <cliffh(at)outdrs.net>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      I have had the preformed windshield on my Speedster for three years. I 
      have not had any cracks, scratchs, or crazing with it.
      
      Floran Higgins
      Speedster
      912ULS
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk 
        To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:00 PM
        Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      
      
        Never got a chance to try mine out, the guy I bought my kit from had 
      bought the preformed windshield in 1994 when he bought the kit.  Paid 
      about $350 for it also.  After I had the butt and center ribs on the 
      fusaloge, I took the windshield and set it up in place.  I walke around  
      the plane and lifted up the font corner of the windshield about an inch 
      to move it just a bit and I heard a little snap.  No real pressure on it 
      it or anything, but it had cracked right where it makes the sharpest 
      bend.  What a waste of money.  It had sat in the big box it came in, 
      maybe it was brittle because of it's age, I don't know.  So far I have 
      cut some pieces out of it and heat formed some wingtip light lens caps.  
      It seems to work for that.  I would just get the lexan if it was me and 
      make my own windshield.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building.  Mn
      
        > Subject: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
        > From: thedays(at)mchsi.com
        > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:32:59 -0700
        > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
        > 
      
        > 
        > I am wondering what kind of luck people are having with the Model IV 
      pre-formed windshield. Specifically scratch resistance, crazing and 
      cracking.
        > 
        > Thanks
        > 
        > --------
        > _______________________________________
        > Giovanni Day
        > Model 4 speedster 912
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > Read this topic online here:
        > 
        > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8065#208065
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > > 
        > 
        > 
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
        See how Windows connects the people, 
      information,/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      I have had the LP Aeroplastic preformed windshield/skylight in my  
      Speedster for 2 1/2 years with nary a problem.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:58 PM, floran higgins wrote:
      
      > I have had the preformed windshield on my Speedster for three  
      > years. I have not had any cracks, scratchs, or crazing with it.
      >
      > Floran Higgins
      > Speedster
      > 912ULS
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:00 PM
      > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      >
      > Never got a chance to try mine out, the guy I bought my kit from  
      > had bought the preformed windshield in 1994 when he bought the  
      > kit.  Paid about $350 for it also.  After I had the butt and center  
      > ribs on the fusaloge, I took the windshield and set it up in  
      > place.  I walke around  the plane and lifted up the font corner of  
      > the windshield about an inch to move it just a bit and I heard a  
      > little snap.  No real pressure on it it or anything, but it had  
      > cracked right where it makes the sharpest bend.  What a waste of  
      > money.  It had sat in the big box it came in, maybe it was brittle  
      > because of it's age, I don't know.  So far I have cut some pieces  
      > out of it and heat formed some wingtip light lens caps.  It seems  
      > to work for that.  I would just get the lexan if it was me and make  
      > my own windshield.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building.  Mn
      >
      > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      > > From: thedays(at)mchsi.com
      > > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:32:59 -0700
      > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > >
      > 
      > >
      > > I am wondering what kind of luck people are having with the Model  
      > IV pre-formed windshield. Specifically scratch resistance, crazing  
      > and cracking.
      > >
      > > Thanks
      > >
      > > --------
      > > _______________________________________
      > > Giovanni Day
      > > Model 4 speedster 912
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Read this topic online here:
      > >
      > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8065#208065
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > See how Windows connects the people, information,/ 
      > msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Nowhref="http:// 
      > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// 
      > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// 
      > forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/ 
      > contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c_- 
      > ============================================================ _- 
      > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 
      > ============================================================ _- 
      > forums.matronics.com_- 
      > ============================================================ _- 
      > contribution_- 
      > ===========================================================
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
From: 
"Giovanni Day" <thedays(at)mchsi.com>
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Called about a 4x8 sheet today and it was $213 until the next shipment when it
      will go up again. The preformed is going to cost about $500 to buy and get here.
      I have replaced three of the non-preformed ones in the last 1.5 years and it
      is growing old. The first one broke after being on for several months but never
      flown. It was the old rhino 0.125 that came with the kit in the 90s. The next
      two were plexiglass not lexan so I guess I was asking for it with those. I
      want something that will last a long time and look nice.
      
      Anyone else??
      
      --------
      _______________________________________
      Giovanni Day
      Model 4 speedster 912
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8098#208098
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs and HS adjustment
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      Larry
      
      It is normal for the 582 to spring closed. To make this a bit more 
      manageable you can use the same method as the guys with the 912's and use 
      a counterbalance spring on the bellcrank to arrive at the best feel for 
      you.
      
      I got a hell of a shock when I first flew the Jabiru powered Kitfox after 
      flying my 582 model as when I pushed the vernier know in to taxi it 
      immediately leapt to full throttle. Gave my passenger quite a fright - Me 
      too!
      
      Gary Algate
      Classic 4 jabiru 2200
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
      
      "larry huntley" 
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      10/10/2008 01:54 AM
      Please respond to
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      cc
      
      Subject
      Kitfox-List: Throttle springs and HS adjustment
      
      
      Hi Folks,
        I have a different problem with a throttle spring. I am working on a 
      Kitfox 2 (N815TL) with a 582 Rotax and 2 Bing carburetors.The aircraft has 
      
      over 500 hours and is on at least its third owner. He wants to learn to 
      fly 
      on this bird,so I am concerned about getting everything right.
        I am familiar with Kitfox . I built a  4-1200 / Soob on which I have 
      500hrs.
        On the model 2 the spring(s) is quite strong and pulls to CLOSE the 
      throttle. In case of a failure of the throttle cable, it seems that it 
      would 
      shut the engine down. Is this the normal situation for this aircraft? I 
      know 
      absolutely nothing about Rotax engines so any help will be beneficial. 
      This 
      plane has a vernier throttle( which I don't care for) and the spring is 
      strong enough to make the vernier difficult to manage. I have flown the 
      plane only once. It seems to be a fine aircraft.
        The other problem with this model 2 is the elevator. It is in the bottom 
      
      of two holes at the leading edge. In flight the stick is much farther 
      forward than in any other aircraft I have flown. If you line up the 
      elevator 
      and the horizontal stabilizer on the ground,this stick is in what feels 
      like 
      a more normal position. This means that in flight the elevator must be 
      well 
      into the down position. The owner says the seller had taken him for a ride 
      
      in the plane,so he must have been flying it like this. Don't know how many 
      
      of the 500 hours he put on it.
        Sorry to be so long-winded,but wanted to give enough info to be able to 
      get some logical responses.
         Thank you for any help.           Larry Huntley - KF 4-1200 - Soob 
      EA81 -AMAX redrive - Warp Drive prop    N234EE     506 HRS
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8045#208045
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      I also purchased an LP Aero windscreen thru John McBean and as I was 
      drilling the main holes through the cabin uprights it cracked from the 
      hole towards the centre of the windscreen. I was using the supplied 
      special drills and used some really choice adjectives when it cracked!
      
      Crazy thing was that from the centre of the hole to the outside of the 
      windscreen was only about 1/4" yet it cracked back thru the centre of the 
      windscreen.
      
      I called LP Aero and with John's help they were pretty good about it and 
      sent me another one for only a couple hundred bucks.
      
      As I was planning  a trip I was able to get a sheet of lexan and had a new 
      one made up in about 3 hrs - the new LP Aero It is still in the box!
      
      I intend to fit it as they look great but I just need to get my confidence 
      back - Lynn when you get a chance perhaps you could let me know how you 
      went about fitting yours?
      
      Gary
      
      
      Gary Algate
      Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
      
      Lynn Matteson 
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      10/10/2008 07:43 AM
      Please respond to
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      cc
      
      Subject
      Re: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      
      
      I have had the LP Aeroplastic preformed windshield/skylight in my 
      Speedster for 2 1/2 years with nary a problem.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition 
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:58 PM, floran higgins wrote:
      
      > I have had the preformed windshield on my Speedster for three 
      > years. I have not had any cracks, scratchs, or crazing with it.
      >
      > Floran Higgins
      > Speedster
      > 912ULS
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:00 PM
      > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      >
      > Never got a chance to try mine out, the guy I bought my kit from 
      > had bought the preformed windshield in 1994 when he bought the 
      > kit.  Paid about $350 for it also.  After I had the butt and center 
      > ribs on the fusaloge, I took the windshield and set it up in 
      > place.  I walke around  the plane and lifted up the font corner of 
      > the windshield about an inch to move it just a bit and I heard a 
      > little snap.  No real pressure on it it or anything, but it had 
      > cracked right where it makes the sharpest bend.  What a waste of 
      > money.  It had sat in the big box it came in, maybe it was brittle 
      > because of it's age, I don't know.  So far I have cut some pieces 
      > out of it and heat formed some wingtip light lens caps.  It seems 
      > to work for that.  I would just get the lexan if it was me and make 
      > my own windshield.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building.  Mn
      >
      > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      > > From: thedays(at)mchsi.com
      > > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:32:59 -0700
      > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > >
      > 
      > >
      > > I am wondering what kind of luck people are having with the Model 
      > IV pre-formed windshield. Specifically scratch resistance, crazing 
      > and cracking.
      > >
      > > Thanks
      > >
      > > --------
      > > _______________________________________
      > > Giovanni Day
      > > Model 4 speedster 912
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Read this topic online here:
      > >
      > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8065#208065
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > See how Windows connects the people, information,/ 
      > msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Nowhref="http:// 
      > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// 
      > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// 
      > forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/ 
      > contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c_- 
      > ============================================================ _- 
      > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 
      > ============================================================ _- 
      > forums.matronics.com_- 
      > ============================================================ _- 
      > contribution_- 
      > ===========================================================
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
From: 
"Giovanni Day" <thedays(at)mchsi.com>
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      What Chemistry is the LP Aero? Does it have to be trimmed at the edges? 
      
      Thanks again.
      
      --------
      _______________________________________
      Giovanni Day
      Model 4 speedster 912
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8103#208103
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      It has to be trimmed to size and it is formed from Acrylic . It is hard 
      and quite brittle but once fitted correctly is optically clear and 
      distortion free.
      
      Minor scratches that develop can be polished out so this is quite a 
      benefit.
      
      Mine is also tinted - damn I'm going to have to fit it now!
      
      Gary Algate
      Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
      
      "Giovanni Day" 
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      10/10/2008 09:24 AM
      Please respond to
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      cc
      
      Subject
      Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      
      
      What Chemistry is the LP Aero? Does it have to be trimmed at the edges? 
      
      Thanks again.
      
      --------
      _______________________________________
      Giovanni Day
      Model 4 speedster 912
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8103#208103
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
New Rotax 912/914 Ring Mount
From: 
"ricklach" <rick(at)ravengear.us>
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Hi Guys,
      
      I am a specialty manufacture of aircraft engine mounts and I have developed and
      I'm now marketing the Ring Mount required on all Rotax 912/914 engine installations.
      Rotax sell this exact mount for $1064.88. I've price my mount at $895.00.
      Dealer pricing and quantity pricing are available. We are an FAA-PMA parts
      manufacture and even though this part does not require a FAA manufacturing approval
      it is manufactured using the same processes and quality control required
      by the FAA for our certified part.
      
      I have also attached a flyer.
      
      Should you have any questions I can be reached at rick(at)ravenaviation.us
      
      Thank You
      
      Rick Lach
      
      --------
      Rick
      N35 26.700,  W118 16.743
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8108#208108
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/rotax_912_flyer_1_171.jpg
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Larry Huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"jdmcbean" <jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraft.com>
Subject: 
New Rotax 912/914 Ring Mount
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Thats interesting.. We include them with the engine purchase or sell them
      for $525 separately.
      
      Fly Safe !!
      John & Debra McBean
      Ph 208.337.5111
      www.kitfoxaircraft.com
      "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" 
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ricklach
      Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 5:56 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: New Rotax 912/914 Ring Mount
      
      
      Hi Guys,
      
      I am a specialty manufacture of aircraft engine mounts and I have developed
      and I'm now marketing the Ring Mount required on all Rotax 912/914 engine
      installations. Rotax sell this exact mount for $1064.88. I've price my mount
      at $895.00. Dealer pricing and quantity pricing are available. We are an
      FAA-PMA parts manufacture and even though this part does not require a FAA
      manufacturing approval it is manufactured using the same processes and
      quality control required by the FAA for our certified part.
      
      I have also attached a flyer.
      
      Should you have any questions I can be reached at rick(at)ravenaviation.us
      
      Thank You
      
      Rick Lach
      
      --------
      Rick
      N35 26.700,  W118 16.743
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8108#208108
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/rotax_912_flyer_1_171.jpg
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Larry Huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      =======AVGMAIL-48EE9F040000=======--
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Larry Huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Larry Huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs and HS adjustment
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      =======AVGMAIL-48EEA02C0000=======--
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs and HS adjustment
From: 
"larry huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com>
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      
      Thanx to everyone for the responses to our problems with the throttle and HS on
      the Mod 2 . You have been most helpful. 
      For some reason I can't seem to post from outlook express. I am receiving ok. 
      ???                             Larry Huntley
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8115#208115
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Ron Liebmann" <rliebmann(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
New GSC 68" blade on EBay
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
      
      Hi Kitfox Folks,
      
      I have listed one GSC new prop blade with leading edge guard on EBay. It 
      is 
      for a 68" 3 blade prop. I've been off the list for some time and just 
      thought I'd tell you about the blade.
      
      Item number: 120314244112
      
      
      Thanks for reading,          Ron 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      Check with a local comercial glass installer and see if they can get it for
       you on one of their shipments.  Probably get it for a good bit less.  Also
      =2C if you can get it in 4X10 you will have enough for the next time you wa
      nt to change it also.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building  Mn> Subject: Kitfox-Lis
      t: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield> From: thedays(at)mchsi.com> Date: Thu
      List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" > > Called about 
      a 4x8 sheet today and it was $213 until the next shipment when it will go u
      p again. The preformed is going to cost about $500 to buy and get here. I h
      ave replaced three of the non-preformed ones in the last 1.5 years and it i
      s growing old. The first one broke after being on for several months but ne
      ver flown. It was the old rhino 0.125 that came with the kit in the 90s. Th
      e next two were plexiglass not lexan so I guess I was asking for it with th
      ose. I want something that will last a long time and look nice.> > Anyone e
      lse??> > --------> _______________________________________> Giovanni Day> M
      odel 4 speedster 912> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums
      ==> > > 
      _________________________________________________________________
      See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on
       the go.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
From: 
"Cecil Stokesberry" <stokesc(at)wildblue.net>
Subject: 
Ready for AW Cert
      
      I had to put a hold on engine running due to rain (and maybe a golf game or
      so).
      Now back to breaking in the engine (582 grey head, 3.1 C gearbox, GSC 3
      blade).
      Resumed running every thing going well until the 5th section of a 5 min run
      at 5000rpm -
      then poof the rear cyl quit.
      Egt was showing 1180 on front and 1110 on rear - then rear dropped very
      quickly.
      After a lot of testing the problem turned out to be a plugged jet in the
      carb.
      I use a Mr. Funnel but have no in line filter.
      Still running rough at idle and smooth at 3000+ but carbs still bouncing
      greatly.
      Replaced Carb socket boots with after market ones (thicker and harder
      rubber compound)
      then engine ran with less roughness at idle and carbs were steady.
      
      Cecil
      N161CP
      582 1050
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 09, 2008
From: 
"Cecil Stokesberry" <stokesc(at)wildblue.net>
Subject: 
Prop pitch
      
      I have a GSC 3-blade ground adjustable prop.
      If my memory has not failed me I orginally
      set the prop angle at 10 deg at 75 deg of radius.
      The static rpm is 6800 which is max rpm.
      I think the static should be 6200.  When
      increasing the pitch to reduce static rpm
      how many degrees change is there
      for, say, each 100 rpm's?
      Thanks for any insight.
      
      Cecil
      Md 4 582 1050
      C gear box
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"grcolquhoun(at)xtra.co.nz" <grcolquhoun(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: 
Re: test
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      On 9/10/2008, at 10:08 AM, Larry Huntley wrote:
      
      > =======AVGMAIL-48ED21610000=======--
      >
      > recieved  roseme skystar
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      I picked mine up at their factory on my way home from Sun 'n' Fun in  
      2005 to save the cost of shipping...it was only a few hundred miles  
      out of the way.
      
      I was afraid at first of handling the thing, because they really warn  
      you to have help. At first I did, but once it was placed on the  
      plane, I moved it around enough to trim the sides and rear with no  
      help. I used a Dremel tool with an abrasive disk to do the cutting,  
      then smoothed the edges to a radius with files and sandpaper. I used  
      the LP Aeroplastic drills, going the recommended oversize to allow  
      for expansion. I have drills in 1/8", 3/16", and 1/4"...but I just  
      don't recall what size I used. I'm pretty sure it was a 10-32 screw I  
      used, which was probably overkill...I'll check later on the size. And  
      if I DID use 10-32, then I must've drilled with the 1/4" drill.  
      (memory is a terrible thing to lose) I chamfered and smoothed every  
      hole. I used the LP A foam tape wherever the windshield contacted the  
      aircraft. I did the same thing when fitting the turtledeck bubble to  
      the turtledeck frame, but used much smaller screws.
      
      I'm surprised that you had cracking, Gary, especially toward the inside.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 9, 2008, at 6:36 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
      
      >
      > I also purchased an LP Aero windscreen thru John McBean and as I  
      > was drilling the main holes through the cabin uprights it cracked  
      > from the hole towards the centre of the windscreen. I was using the  
      > supplied special drills and used some really choice adjectives when  
      > it cracked!
      >
      > Crazy thing was that from the centre of the hole to the outside of  
      > the windscreen was only about 1/4" yet it cracked back thru the  
      > centre of the windscreen.
      >
      > I called LP Aero and with John's help they were pretty good about  
      > it and sent me another one for only a couple hundred bucks.
      >
      > As I was planning  a trip I was able to get a sheet of lexan and  
      > had a new one made up in about 3 hrs - the new LP Aero It is still  
      > in the box!
      >
      > I intend to fit it as they look great but I just need to get my  
      > confidence back - Lynn when you get a chance perhaps you could let  
      > me know how you went about fitting yours?
      >
      > Gary
      >
      >
      > Gary Algate
      > Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      >
      >
      > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  
      > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  
      > this message by persons or entities other than the intended  
      > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  
      > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  
      > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  
      > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  
      > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      >
      >
      > Lynn Matteson 
      > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > 10/10/2008 07:43 AM
      > Please respond to
      > kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      >
      > To
      > kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > cc
      > Subject
      > Re: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      >
      >
      > I have had the LP Aeroplastic preformed windshield/skylight in my
      > Speedster for 2 1/2 years with nary a problem.
      >
      > Lynn Matteson
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition
      > system is in for a "medical checkup"
      >
      >
      > On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:58 PM, floran higgins wrote:
      >
      > > I have had the preformed windshield on my Speedster for three
      > > years. I have not had any cracks, scratchs, or crazing with it.
      > >
      > > Floran Higgins
      > > Speedster
      > > 912ULS
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk
      > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:00 PM
      > > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      > >
      > > Never got a chance to try mine out, the guy I bought my kit from
      > > had bought the preformed windshield in 1994 when he bought the
      > > kit.  Paid about $350 for it also.  After I had the butt and center
      > > ribs on the fusaloge, I took the windshield and set it up in
      > > place.  I walke around  the plane and lifted up the font corner of
      > > the windshield about an inch to move it just a bit and I heard a
      > > little snap.  No real pressure on it it or anything, but it had
      > > cracked right where it makes the sharpest bend.  What a waste of
      > > money.  It had sat in the big box it came in, maybe it was brittle
      > > because of it's age, I don't know.  So far I have cut some pieces
      > > out of it and heat formed some wingtip light lens caps.  It seems
      > > to work for that.  I would just get the lexan if it was me and make
      > > my own windshield.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building.  Mn
      > >
      > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      > > > From: thedays(at)mchsi.com
      > > > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:32:59 -0700
      > > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > > >
      > > 
      > > >
      > > > I am wondering what kind of luck people are having with the Model
      > > IV pre-formed windshield. Specifically scratch resistance, crazing
      > > and cracking.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks
      > > >
      > > > --------
      > > > _______________________________________
      > > > Giovanni Day
      > > > Model 4 speedster 912
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Read this topic online here:
      > > >
      > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8065#208065
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > See how Windows connects the people, information,/
      > > msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Nowhref="http://
      > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://
      > > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
      > > forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/
      > > contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c_-
      > > ============================================================ _-
      > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_-
      > > ============================================================ _-
      > > forums.matronics.com_-
      > > ============================================================ _-
      > > contribution_-
      > > ===========================================================
      >
      >
      > -
      > -
      >          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
      >
      >
      > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 
      > www.matronics.com/contribution _- 
      > ===========================================================
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: 
Re: Kreem chunks problem
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      I just returned home from AK.  I was one of those resloshers who decided to 
      take on the project because the evidence of spiderwebbing in the tank and 
      the tanks weren't yet installed in the wings which made it easier.  No 
      issues at all since then.  I can't say for sure that I would have had a 
      problem had I not resloshed and I'll never know.  However, it gave me the 
      peace of mind I needed.
      Deke Morisse
      Mikado Michigan
      S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT
      "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
      - Joseph Joubert
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 11:38 AM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kreem chunks problem
      
      
      >
      > Hi Paul,
      >
      > Noel mentioned that the reason he hasn't Kreemed the wing tanks was 
      > because of the issue of Kreem coming loose and blocking the finger 
      > strainers.  I can recall only one instance that I am aware of when that 
      > happened.  Granted there are tons of Kitfoxes out there without list 
      > affiliation, but I doubt there were many instances of Kreem problems, 
      > because back then, the factory was very keen on posting Service Bulletins 
      > if it determined there were issues.  There is one Service Bulletin 
      > regarding an unnamed sloshing compound coming loose in an aluminum header 
      > tank.  In the search list it is erroneosly dated 1999 covering the general 
      > time span of the LV Howell instance, but the date on the Denney bulletin 
      > is 1991.  The LV Howell instance was on one of the early Alaska 
      > adventures. http://www.sportflight.com/alaska/KingEpilogMain.htm  Check 
      > day eleven. There may have been others where flaking occurred, but I am 
      > not aware of other total blockages from loose Kreem or other instances 
      > where large pieces came out - 8X8". I mentioned two or three to be a tad 
      > liberal.   As Lynn suggested, it may have been due to poorly prepared 
      > internal surfaces.
      >
      > The reason for my post is pretty much as you mention.  It caused a real 
      > firestorm, so to speak.  Many seemed to become Kreem phobic and took great 
      > lengths to either reslosh or remove it.  Others just added it to their 
      > prefight and went on flying.  I have been on flights of ten with friends 
      > to the Idaho back country.  None of these guys are on the list, and none 
      > with Kreem issues and none concerned with Kreem.  And most of them with 
      > Kitfoxes from the Kreem issue era.  I just wonder how many of the 
      > resloshers actually had issues with the Kreem.
      >
      > Lowell
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----- 
      > From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      > To: 
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 4:53 AM
      > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kreem chunks problem
      >
      >
      >> 
      >>
      >>
      >> On Tue, October 7, 2008 3:10 pm, Lowell Fitt wrote:
      >>>
      >>> Noel says,"The reason I mentioned my tanks are not
      >>>> sloshed is because it has happened that sloshing compound has separated 
      >>>> in
      >>>> the tank and blocked finger strainers.
      >>>
      >>> Yes this happened - maybe two or three times out of a couple thousand
      >>> Kitfoxs.
      >>
      >> Lowell - seems like 10 years back or so on this list, I seem to recall 
      >> more than a
      >> couple of times where people wanted to slosh the Fiberglas tanks because 
      >> fuel was
      >> causing separation and leaking. Some just could not get the Kreem to 
      >> stick well and
      >> you probably remember all the discussions about repeated sloshing with 
      >> MEK to remove
      >> the Kreem. Some people thought the particular formulation of the Kreem 
      >> was old and the
      >> newer formulations were fine. Some thought it was Ethanol or other 
      >> oxygenated
      >> additives were causing the problem. In some cases it was thought that the 
      >> Kreem
      >> wouldn't be successful if the tanks had been used with the offending 
      >> gasoline long
      >> enough for the fuel to be absorbed somewhat in the Fiberglas. I was left 
      >> with the
      >> impression that people that were successful sloshing did so on new and 
      >> unused tanks
      >> with the most recent Kreem formulation. I could be wrong but it seemed to 
      >> me like
      >> Kreem problems happened more than "two or three" times. Being the expert 
      >> craftsman
      >> that you are, using Kreem was undoubtedly successful for you.
      >>
      >> -- 
      >> Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      >> PAF Consulting Engineers
      >> Office 425.440.9505
      >> Cell 425.241.1618
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
From: 
"Giovanni Day" <thedays(at)mchsi.com>
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      Lynn,
      
      Does that foam tape have adhesive single or double sided? 
      
      
      Also how thick is the LP Windshield?
      
      --------
      _______________________________________
      Giovanni Day
      Model 4 speedster 912
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8164#208164
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Daniel Wild" <djwild2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Prop pitch
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      Cecil,
      I just did the same thing a few weeks ago. In the end it took 1.5 deg. 
      increase to get the right (6200) rpms.
      It is much better that way. Eng. temp are lower and a faster cruise. 
      
      Dan Wild
      mdl1 532
      GSC prop
      
      
      From: Cecil Stokesberry 
      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:31 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      
      I have a GSC 3-blade ground adjustable prop.
      If my memory has not failed me I orginally
      set the prop angle at 10 deg at 75 deg of radius.
      The static rpm is 6800 which is max rpm.
      I think the static should be 6200.  When
      increasing the pitch to reduce static rpm
      how many degrees change is there
      for, say, each 100 rpm's?
      Thanks for any insight.
      
      Cecil 
      Md 4 582 1050
      C gear box 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: 
Prop pitch
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      Dan - 1.5 degree increase to what final setting?
      
      Bob Brennan - N717GB 
      1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      Wrightsville Pa  
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Wild
      Sent: 10 October 2008 9:27 am
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      
      Cecil,
      I just did the same thing a few weeks ago. In the end it took 1.5 deg.
      increase to get the right (6200) rpms.
      It is much better that way. Eng. temp are lower and a faster cruise. 
      
      Dan Wild
      mdl1 532
      GSC prop
      
      From: Cecil Stokesberry <mailto:stokesc(at)wildblue.net>  
      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:31 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      I have a GSC 3-blade ground adjustable prop.
      If my memory has not failed me I orginally
      set the prop angle at 10 deg at 75 deg of radius.
      The static rpm is 6800 which is max rpm.
      I think the static should be 6200.  When
      increasing the pitch to reduce static rpm
      how many degrees change is there
      for, say, each 100 rpm's?
      Thanks for any insight.
      
      Cecil 
      Md 4 582 1050
      C gear box 
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
      "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
From: 
Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      
      I have a mod 2 w/ Lexine it is starting to crack /craze?- around the top 
      outside edge neer the sharpest- bend my a-n-p- suggested a dab of aceto
      ne- to stop the cracks? but there is at least 30 of them on each side.the
       Lexine is at least 8 years old- and still looks very good probably becau
      se of the way I clean it. - any suggestions on how to keep the cracks fro
      m getting any worse?-- Malcolm Michigan
      
      --- On Thu, 10/9/08, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com  wrot
      e:
      From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com <gary.algate(at)sandvik.com>
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 11:25 PM
      
      
      It has to be trimmed to size and it
      is formed from Acrylic . It is hard and quite brittle but once fitted corre
      ctly
      is optically clear and distortion free.
      
      
      Minor scratches that develop can be
      polished out so this is quite a benefit.
      
      
      Mine is also tinted - damn I'm going
      to have to fit it now!
      
      
      Gary Algate
      
      Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential
      and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination,
      distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than
      the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
      in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete
      the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
      any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise
      as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
      
      "Giovanni Day" 
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      
      10/10/2008 09:24 AM
      
      Please respond to
      
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      
      cc
      
      
      Subject
      Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed
      windshield
      
      
      Day" 
      
      
      What Chemistry is the LP Aero? Does it have to be trimmed at the edges?
      
      
      Thanks again.
      
      
      --------
      
      _______________________________________
      
      Giovanni Day
      
      Model 4 speedster 912
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8103#208103
      
      
      -
      
      -
      
      - - - - --Matt Dralle, List Admin.
      
      
      =0A=0A=0A      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      Drill a small hole at the very end of any crack, it will not progress from
      there. I have the same problem with a windscreen that needs to be replaced -
      my cracks were large enough that I needed to cover them with prop tape as
      well.
      
      Bob Brennan - N717GB 
      1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      Wrightsville Pa  
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm
      Brubaker
      Sent: 10 October 2008 9:40 am
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      
      
      I have a mod 2 w/ Lexine it is starting to crack /craze?  around the top
      outside edge neer the sharpest  bend my a-n-p  suggested a dab of acetone
      to stop the cracks? but there is at least 30 of them on each side.the Lexine
      is at least 8 years old  and still looks very good probably because of the
      way I clean it.   any suggestions on how to keep the cracks from getting any
      worse?   Malcolm Michigan
      
      --- On Thu, 10/9/08, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com 
      wrote:
      
      
      From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com <gary.algate(at)sandvik.com>
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 11:25 PM
      
      
      It has to be trimmed to size and it is formed from Acrylic . It is hard and
      quite brittle but once fitted correctly is optically clear and distortion
      free. 
      
      Minor scratches that develop can be polished out so this is quite a benefit.
      
      
      Mine is also tinted - damn I'm going to have to fit it now!
      
      Gary Algate
      Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any
      review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons
      or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have
      received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or
      e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept
      liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which
      may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 
      
      
      "Giovanni Day"  
      
      
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      10/10/2008 09:24 AM 
      Please respond to
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 
      
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 	
      
      cc
      
      	
      
      Subject
      Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield	
      
      
      	
      	
      
      
      What Chemistry is the LP Aero? Does it have to be trimmed at the edges? 
      
      Thanks again.
      
      --------
      _______________________________________
      Giovanni Day
      Model 4 speedster 912
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8103#208103
      
      
      -
      -
               -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
      
      
      D========================
      =========
      
      
      D========================
      =========
      
      
      D========================
      =========
      
      
      D========================
      =========
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Daniel Wild" <djwild2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Prop pitch
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      Bob,
      I'm actually not sure what the final pitch was or how to figure that 
      exactly. I just used one of those round prop pitch tools with a bubble 
      in the middle. I marked where the current pitch was and then started 
      increasing the pitch. first I went two deg. then ran the engine. It was 
      5800 or so. then decrease one deg still ran 6500 or so. so I ended up 
      with total 1.5 deg. increase. I have never tried to set a prop. to a 
      certain pitch. I always run the engine, too slow decrease pitch too fast 
      increase pitch and then make sure all blades are exactly the same.
      
      Dan Wild
      mdl1 532
      GSC prop
      
      
      From: Bob Brennan 
      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:39 AM
      Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      
      Dan - 1.5 degree increase to what final setting?
      
      Bob Brennan - N717GB 
      1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      Wrightsville Pa  
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -------
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Wild
      Sent: 10 October 2008 9:27 am
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      
      Cecil,
      I just did the same thing a few weeks ago. In the end it took 1.5 deg. 
      increase to get the right (6200) rpms.
      It is much better that way. Eng. temp are lower and a faster cruise. 
      
      Dan Wild
      mdl1 532
      GSC prop
      
      
      From: Cecil Stokesberry 
      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:31 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      
      I have a GSC 3-blade ground adjustable prop.
      If my memory has not failed me I orginally
      set the prop angle at 10 deg at 75 deg of radius.
      The static rpm is 6800 which is max rpm.
      I think the static should be 6200.  When
      increasing the pitch to reduce static rpm
      how many degrees change is there
      for, say, each 100 rpm's?
      Thanks for any insight.
      
      Cecil 
      Md 4 582 1050
      C gear box 
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: 
Re: Prop pitch
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      5800 static is even better.
      
      Deke Morisse
      Mikado Michigan
      S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT
      "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but 
      progress."
      - Joseph Joubert
      
      
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Cecil Stokesberry 
        To: Kitfox 
        Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:31 AM
        Subject: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      
        I have a GSC 3-blade ground adjustable prop.
        If my memory has not failed me I orginally
        set the prop angle at 10 deg at 75 deg of radius.
        The static rpm is 6800 which is max rpm.
        I think the static should be 6200.  When
        increasing the pitch to reduce static rpm
        how many degrees change is there
        for, say, each 100 rpm's?
        Thanks for any insight.
      
        Cecil 
        Md 4 582 1050
        C gear box 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      Not that I'm an expert or anything=2C but I would recomend that you get a s
      heet of lexan and pull the old one=2C 
      use it for a pattern=2C and in about 3 hrs or so=2C you will have a nice ne
      w one.  That's what I did on both of my Avids.
      Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 building=2C Avid Mk IV flying   Mn
      
      
      From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.nameTo: kitfox-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: K
      itfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshieldDate: Fri=2C 10 Oct 2008 09:4
      
      Drill a small hole at the very end of any crack=2C it will not progress fro
      m there. I have the same problem with a windscreen that needs to be replace
      d - my cracks were large enough that I needed to cover them with prop tape 
      as well.
      
      
      Bob Brennan - N717GB 
      1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      Wrightsville Pa  
      
      
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
      er(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm BrubakerSent: 10 October 2008 9:40 a
      mTo: kitfox-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-fo
      rmed windshield
      
      
      I have a mod 2 w/ Lexine it is starting to crack /craze?  around the top ou
      tside edge neer the sharpest  bend my a-n-p  suggested a dab of acetone  to
       stop the cracks? but there is at least 30 of them on each side.the Lexine 
      is at least 8 years old  and still looks very good probably because of the 
      way I clean it.   any suggestions on how to keep the cracks from getting an
      y worse?   Malcolm Michigan--- On Thu=2C 10/9/08=2C gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
        wrote:
      From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com <gary.algate(at)sandvik.com>Subject: Re: Kitfox-
      List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshieldTo: kitfox-list(at)matronics.comDate: 
      Thursday=2C October 9=2C 2008=2C 11:25 PM
      It has to be trimmed to size and it is formed from Acrylic . It is hard and
       quite brittle but once fitted correctly is optically clear and distortion 
      free. Minor scratches that develop can be polished out so this is quite a b
      enefit. Mine is also tinted - damn I'm going to have to fit it now!Gary Alg
      ateClassic 4 Jabiru 2200Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655This e-mail is confide
      ntial and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review=2C disseminati
      on=2C distribution=2C or copying of this message by persons or entities oth
      er than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-m
      ail in error=2C kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and del
      ete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for 
      any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as 
      a result of the e-mail transmission. 
      
      
      "Giovanni Day"  
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 10/10/2008 09:24 AM Please 
      respond tokitfox-list(at)matronics.com 
      
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 
      
      
      cc
      
      
      Subject
      Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      
      
      hemistry is the LP Aero? Does it have to be trimmed at the edges? Thanks ag
      ain.--------_______________________________________Giovanni DayModel 4 spee
      dster 912Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.
      php?p 8103#208103--         -Matt Dralle=2C List Admin.
      
      3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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      href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"'>http://www.matr
      onics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
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      3D
      
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on
       the go.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs and HS adjustment
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Thu, October 9, 2008 5:27 pm, larry huntley wrote:
      >
      > Thanx to everyone for the responses to our problems with the throttle and HS
      on the
      > Mod 2 . You have been most helpful.
      > For some reason I can't seem to post from outlook express. I am receiving ok.
      ???
      >                         Larry Huntley
      
      You posted a number of empty messages. A possible clue is that you have your AVG
      scanner set to examine outgoing messages, as was seen in one of them.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
From: 
"Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      > I have a mod 2 w/ Lexine it is starting to crack /craze? around the top outside
      edge neer the sharpest bend my a-n-p suggested a dab of acetone to stop the
      cracks? but there is at least 30 of them on each side.the Lexine is at least
      8 years old and still looks very good probably because of the way I clean it.
      any suggestions on how to keep the cracks from getting any worse? Malcolm Michigan
      
      
      
      Malcolm, I would test the acetone on a scrap piece of lexan first.  I have heard
      that gasoline splashed on lexan will cause it to crack.  One theory is because
      the rapid evaporation causes it to cool too fast in a concentrated area.
      
      It took me 4 hours to replace my lexan windshield.  Sounds like the lexan price
      has gone up considerable in the eight years since then.
      
      --------
      Tom Jones
      Classic IV
      503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
      Ellensburg, WA
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8183#208183
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      The tape I have is 1 1/4" wide x 1/16" x 25', very closed cell, and  
      single adhesive. It almost can't be called "foam" because it is so  
      non-foam looking, but it is very soft to the fingernail test.
      I seem to recall that it is .115" to .125" thick...I just threw out  
      the trimmings...damn!...after 2 and a half years, but I'm headed for  
      the hangar now, and if need be I'll let you know.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system is in for a "medical checkup"
      
      
      On Oct 10, 2008, at 9:27 AM, Giovanni Day wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn,
      >
      > Does that foam tape have adhesive single or double sided?
      >
      >
      > Also how thick is the LP Windshield?
      >
      > --------
      > _______________________________________
      > Giovanni Day
      > Model 4 speedster 912
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8164#208164
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: 
Prop pitch
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      Thanks Dan,
      
      I was just curious since I wasn't the one that pitched my prop, although it
      seems to be set well. The logbook shows "changed prop pitch to 13.5 degrees"
      early on and I assume that hasn't changed. It is placarded "Max RPM = 6500"
      and at WOT and 55 mph best rate of climb it goes to about 6300 and I always
      reduce to 6000 when I get at least 300 ft off the ground just to get a more
      comfortable angle in my seat. 75 mph cruise goes with about 5500 rpm in
      level flight.
      
      Just trying to relate that all to prop pitch, now that I know from this list
      how a fraction of a degree can make a lot of difference to a lot of things.
      
      Bob Brennan - N717GB 
      1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop (GSC ground-adjustable)
      Wrightsville Pa  
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Wild
      Sent: 10 October 2008 10:10 am
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      
      Bob,
      I'm actually not sure what the final pitch was or how to figure that
      exactly. I just used one of those round prop pitch tools with a bubble in
      the middle. I marked where the current pitch was and then started increasing
      the pitch. first I went two deg. then ran the engine. It was 5800 or so.
      then decrease one deg still ran 6500 or so. so I ended up with total 1.5
      deg. increase. I have never tried to set a prop. to a certain pitch. I
      always run the engine, too slow decrease pitch too fast increase pitch and
      then make sure all blades are exactly the same.
      
      Dan Wild
      mdl1 532
      GSC prop
      
      
      From: Bob Brennan <mailto:matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>  
      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:39 AM
      Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      Dan - 1.5 degree increase to what final setting?
      
      Bob Brennan - N717GB 
      1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
      Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
      Wrightsville Pa  
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Wild
      Sent: 10 October 2008 9:27 am
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      
      Cecil,
      I just did the same thing a few weeks ago. In the end it took 1.5 deg.
      increase to get the right (6200) rpms.
      It is much better that way. Eng. temp are lower and a faster cruise. 
      
      Dan Wild
      mdl1 532
      GSC prop
      
      From: Cecil Stokesberry <mailto:stokesc(at)wildblue.net>  
      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:31 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Prop pitch
      
      I have a GSC 3-blade ground adjustable prop.
      If my memory has not failed me I orginally
      set the prop angle at 10 deg at 75 deg of radius.
      The static rpm is 6800 which is max rpm.
      I think the static should be 6200.  When
      increasing the pitch to reduce static rpm
      how many degrees change is there
      for, say, each 100 rpm's?
      Thanks for any insight.
      
      Cecil 
      Md 4 582 1050
      C gear box 
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
      "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
      "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
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      "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs and HS adjustment
From: 
"815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      Hi Guys,
      This is the owner of 815TL that Larry was taling about.  I want to send out a thank
      you to all of you for the information that you have provided to Larry and
      to me.
      
      I also want to send a big "thank you" out to Larry, who has been a great help,
      and source of information.  Without his help, I would have been up a creek.  :)
      
      Larry and my instructor flew the plane for a while yesterday, and shot a number
      of approaches and landings.  From the latest report, it sounds like the stick
      issue is not that big of deal, and just takes a little getting used to.  I may
      still adjust it a little, but at this point it does not sound like it is a CG
      problem.
      
      Again, thank you all, and I am sure I will be back for more info. in the near future.
      
      Andrew
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8200#208200
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      To follow up....the windshield is .118" thick, and I used 10-32 truss- 
      head machine screws, because the heads are a bit larger, and  
      flatter...a bit like button head screws. I spaced mine about 2.2"  
      apart across the rear, and about 1.9" apart along the sides.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system was declared bad, and is being replaced.
      
      
      On Oct 10, 2008, at 9:27 AM, Giovanni Day wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn,
      >
      > Does that foam tape have adhesive single or double sided?
      >
      >
      > Also how thick is the LP Windshield?
      >
      > --------
      > _______________________________________
      > Giovanni Day
      > Model 4 speedster 912
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8164#208164
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
patrick reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      Giovanni=2C When I drill plexi=2C I heat it to around 120 degrees with a he
      at gun. I check the temp with a laser thermometer. It seems to stop crackin
      g when drilling or sawing. Give it a test see if it helps.
      
      Pat Reilly
      Mod 3 582 Rebuild
      Rockford=2C IL 
      
      
      From: thesupe(at)hotmail.comTo: kitfox-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
      ist: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshieldDate: Fri=2C 10 Oct 2008 02:49:56 +0
      000
      
      
      Check with a local comercial glass installer and see if they can get it for
       you on one of their shipments.  Probably get it for a good bit less.  Also
      =2C if you can get it in 4X10 you will have enough for the next time you wa
      nt to change it also.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building  Mn> Subject: Kitfox-Lis
      t: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield> From: thedays(at)mchsi.com> Date: Thu
      List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" > > Called about 
      a 4x8 sheet today and it was $213 until the next shipment when it will go u
      p again. The preformed is going to cost about $500 to buy and get here. I h
      ave replaced three of the non-preformed ones in the last 1.5 years and it i
      s growing old. The first one broke after being on for several months but ne
      ver flown. It was the old rhino 0.125 that came with the kit in the 90s. Th
      e next two were plexiglass not lexan so I guess I was asking for it with th
      ose. I want something that will last a long time and look nice.> > Anyone e
      lse??> > --------> _______________________________________> Giovanni Day> M
      odel 4 speedster 912> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums
      .matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8098#208098> > > > > > > > > > 
      
      
      See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C wor2mrt/direc
      t/01/' target='_new'>See Now 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
582 starter not engaging.
From: 
"815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      Hi all,
            I went start up the plane tonight, my instructor was going to take it up
      for a flight, and could not get it to start.  The volts show good, but is sounds
      like the starter is not engaging fully.  I turn the key, and the starter clunks,
      moves the prop about an inch, then disengages and spins.
      
      Can anyone lead me in the right direction as to what to look for?  Could it be
      something as simple as lubrication?  How and with what should I lubricate it with?
      Any other ideas?
      
      I am still new to the Rotax/Kitfox world, so any information anyone could give,
      would be appreciated.
      
      Andrew
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8232#208232
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: 
Re: 582 starter not engaging.
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      Lubrication is doubtful.  With the cowling off, get under the airplane and 
      with a flashlight and see if you can see any part of the flywheel.  Have a 
      good look at it while someone turns the prop slowly.   You may be able to 
      see what is happening from that angle.  Sounds like something is jamming.
      Deke Morisse
      Mikado Michigan
      S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT
      "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
      - Joseph Joubert
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:19 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 starter not engaging.
      
      
      >
      > Hi all,
      >      I went start up the plane tonight, my instructor was going to take it 
      > up for a flight, and could not get it to start.  The volts show good, but 
      > is sounds like the starter is not engaging fully.  I turn the key, and the 
      > starter clunks, moves the prop about an inch, then disengages and spins.
      >
      > Can anyone lead me in the right direction as to what to look for?  Could 
      > it be something as simple as lubrication?  How and with what should I 
      > lubricate it with?  Any other ideas?
      >
      > I am still new to the Rotax/Kitfox world, so any information anyone could 
      > give, would be appreciated.
      >
      > Andrew
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8232#208232
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
      
      Malcolm - if the cracks are large (pick up with a fingernail) I have seen 
      people drill a small hole at the end of the crack as to terminate it, I 
      don't know that I would use acetone as even standard gas will craze the 
      lexan on a warm day.
      
      If I were you I would just replace it with a new lexan screen. It is quite 
      an easy job and only takes a couple of hours. I got really good at it as 
      mu=y panel tank on my previous Kitfox had a filler right in front of the 
      windscreen - On hot days I would sometimes splash some gas on the screen 
      while filling and this immediately crazed the lower part of the screen. 
      After about three I ended up removing the panel tank filler and only 
      filled the wing tank!
      
      Regards
      
      Gary
      
      Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
      
      Malcolm Brubaker 
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      11/10/2008 12:22 AM
      Please respond to
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      cc
      
      Subject
      Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      
      
      I have a mod 2 w/ Lexine it is starting to crack /craze?  around the top 
      outside edge neer the sharpest  bend my a-n-p  suggested a dab of acetone 
      to stop the cracks? but there is at least 30 of them on each side.the 
      Lexine is at least 8 years old  and still looks very good probably because 
      of the way I clean it.   any suggestions on how to keep the cracks from 
      getting any worse?   Malcolm Michigan
      
      --- On Thu, 10/9/08, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com  
      wrote:
      From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com <gary.algate(at)sandvik.com>
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 11:25 PM
      
      
      It has to be trimmed to size and it is formed from Acrylic . It is hard 
      and quite brittle but once fitted correctly is optically clear and 
      distortion free. 
      
      Minor scratches that develop can be polished out so this is quite a 
      benefit. 
      
      Mine is also tinted - damn I'm going to have to fit it now!
      
      Gary Algate
      Classic 4 Jabiru 2200
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 
      
      
      "Giovanni Day"  
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      10/10/2008 09:24 AM 
      Please respond to
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 
      
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 
      cc
      
      Subject
      Kitfox-List: Re: Model IV pre-formed windshield
      
      
      What Chemistry is the LP Aero? Does it have to be trimmed at the edges? 
      
      Thanks again.
      
      --------
      _______________________________________
      Giovanni Day
      Model 4 speedster 912
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8103#208103
      
      
      -
      -
               -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Francisco Drovetta" <dcubj3(at)terra.com.br>
Subject: 
My next aircraft (READY TO FLY!!) - Kitfox IV With Cont O-200
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      Hi !!
      My aircraft is done!! ... ready to Fly!
      More photos you can see at: www.dcubj3.com.br  (sorry only in 
      portuguese)
      Really Happy!!!
      
      
      Francisco Drovetta
      Kitfox IV "brazilian version" with Cont O-200
      S=E3o Paulo, SP, Brazil
      dcubj3(at)terra.com.br
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Series 4-1200 / 912 project for sale $15,500.00
From: 
"Keithc" <keith(at)intev.ca>
Date: 
Oct 10, 2008
      
      
      I have a series 4 - 1200 for sale. very good used 912 included. Factory build wings,
      no instruments . pretty much pre-cover. More info and photos available keith(at)intev.ca
      or 519-240-3064 located in Cambridge Ontario
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8268#208268
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
From: 
steve shinabery <shinco(at)bright.net>
Subject: 
Re: 582 starter not engaging.
      
      
      815TL wrote:
      >
      > Hi all,
      >       I went start up the plane tonight, my instructor was going to take it up
      for a flight, and could not get it to start.  The volts show good, but is sounds
      like the starter is not engaging fully.  I turn the key, and the starter
      clunks, moves the prop about an inch, then disengages and spins.
      >
      > Can anyone lead me in the right direction as to what to look for?  Could it be
      something as simple as lubrication?  How and with what should I lubricate it
      with?  Any other ideas?
      >
      > I am still new to the Rotax/Kitfox world, so any information anyone could give,
      would be appreciated.
      >
      > Andrew
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8232#208232
      >
      >
      >   
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
      >
      >   
      I am going through the same thing right now..mine does not do any 
      thing..only clicks...BAD starter..engine will have to be pulled to 
      replace.can turn starter by hand and then engine will start .then have 
      to turn starter again..and so on..Bad starter.wish you luck...I am going 
      out and pull my  Dam_  engine....Steve Shinabery N554KF   KF2  St.Marys Ohio
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
From: 
steve shinabery <shinco(at)bright.net>
Subject: 
Re: My next aircraft (READY TO FLY!!) - Kitfox IV With  Cont
      O-200
      
      
      Francisco Drovetta wrote:
      > Hi !!
      > My aircraft is done!! ... ready to Fly!
      > More photos you can see at: www.dcubj3.com.br  (sorry only in portuguese)
      > Really Happy!!!
      >  
      >  
      > Francisco Drovetta
      > Kitfox IV "brazilian version" with Cont O-200
      > So Paulo, SP, Brazil
      > dcubj3(at)terra.com.br
      >  
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
      >
      >   
      WOW<Subject: Re: 582 starter not engaging.
From: 
"815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
      
      
      Thanks guys.  I will get a chance tomorrow to check it out.  It clicks then spins,
      so I think it is OK, something is just not meshing.  I guess I will need to
      check it out.
      
      Andrew
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8279#208279
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: 582 starter not engaging.
      
      
      At 05:41 PM 10/10/2008, you wrote:
      >With the cowling off, get under the airplane and with a flashlight 
      >and see if you can see any part of the flywheel.  Have a good look 
      >at it while someone turns the prop slowly.   You may be able to see 
      >what is happening from that angle.
      
      Andrew,
               Deke's got good advice as there is an SL or SB on the 582 
      flywheel, which can fail. You should be able to check it without 
      pulling the engine. You can also see the starter in action from the 
      front if you pull the cowl. Watch it while someone hits the starter. 
      (Don't get your head cut off, though!)
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Francisco Drovetta" <dcubj3(at)terra.com.br>
Subject: 
Re: My next aircraft (READY TO FLY!!) - Kitfox IV With  ContO-200
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
      
      
      Tks a lot Mr. Steve!!
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "steve shinabery" <shinco(at)bright.net>
      Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 7:00 AM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My next aircraft (READY TO FLY!!) - Kitfox IV With 
      ContO-200
      
      
      >
      > Francisco Drovetta wrote:
      >> Hi !!
      >> My aircraft is done!! ... ready to Fly!
      >> More photos you can see at: www.dcubj3.com.br  (sorry only in portuguese)
      >> Really Happy!!!
      >>
      >>
      >> Francisco Drovetta
      >> Kitfox IV "brazilian version" with Cont O-200
      >> So Paulo, SP, Brazil
      >> dcubj3(at)terra.com.br
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >>
      >>
      >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      >>
      >>
      > WOW< luck...Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2     St.Marys Ohio
      >
      >
      
      
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      16:08
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bill Malpass" <malpass-architect(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: 582 starter not engaging.
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
      
      
      Just so happens that I am repairing my starter as we speak as I had the same 
      identical symptoms.  I had some very helpful Kitfoxer's explain to me what 
      is probably happening, and they turned out to be right on the money.  This 
      applies only to the rear mounted starter on the 582.
      
      Take a look at the pilots side stud holding the starter on.  This is the one 
      that always breaks into.  The starter will "rock" slightly to the righ and 
      left seeming loose.  Its enough to not allow the starter to engage all the 
      way.
      
      If this is you issue,  dont try to get at the starter from the cabin side, 
      it is futile..............Got to take the engine out to repair. (good time 
      to go ahead and do a decarb job on the pistons).
      
      Good luck, and you better hope this is all it is, because this is better 
      than a problem with flywheel, bad starter , etc.
      
      Bill
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "steve shinabery" <shinco(at)bright.net>
      Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 5:57 AM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 starter not engaging.
      
      
      >
      > 815TL wrote:
      >>
      >> Hi all,
      >>       I went start up the plane tonight, my instructor was going to take 
      >> it up for a flight, and could not get it to start.  The volts show good, 
      >> but is sounds like the starter is not engaging fully.  I turn the key, 
      >> and the starter clunks, moves the prop about an inch, then disengages and 
      >> spins.
      >>
      >> Can anyone lead me in the right direction as to what to look for?  Could 
      >> it be something as simple as lubrication?  How and with what should I 
      >> lubricate it with?  Any other ideas?
      >>
      >> I am still new to the Rotax/Kitfox world, so any information anyone could 
      >> give, would be appreciated.
      >>
      >> Andrew
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Read this topic online here:
      >>
      >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8232#208232
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >>
      >>
      >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      >>
      > I am going through the same thing right now..mine does not do any 
      > thing..only clicks...BAD starter..engine will have to be pulled to 
      > replace.can turn starter by hand and then engine will start .then have to 
      > turn starter again..and so on..Bad starter.wish you luck...I am going out 
      > and pull my  Dam_  engine....Steve Shinabery N554KF   KF2  St.Marys Ohio
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: 582 starter not engaging.
From: 
"815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
      
      
      Man, I really hope I don't have to pull the motor on it right now.  I wanted to
      get some flying time in.  Is there any way to reach that bolt, without pulling
      it?
      
      Andrew
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8294#208294
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: 
Re: 582 starter not engaging.
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
      
      
      Andrew, don't let pulling the engine slow you down.  It's only about a 20 
      minute job with an overhead hoist or if you have big muskles, you can just 
      lift it out of there.  Once you get it out it should be evident what the 
      problem is.
      Deke Morisse
      Mikado Michigan
      S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT
      "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
      - Joseph Joubert
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 8:51 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 starter not engaging.
      
      
      >
      > Thanks guys.  I will get a chance tomorrow to check it out.  It clicks 
      > then spins, so I think it is OK, something is just not meshing.  I guess I 
      > will need to check it out.
      >
      > Andrew
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8279#208279
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bill Malpass" <malpass-architect(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: 582 starter not engaging.
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
      
      
      There are some 10 rubber washers per side and the stud to replace , so I 
      dont think a surgeon could even pull  something off like a repair such as 
      this.  Your going to have to get the engine out.  Just visually check and 
      you can make sure the broken stud is the problem first.
      Make sure this is the problem...........................
      
      Bill
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:17 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 starter not engaging.
      
      
      >
      > Man, I really hope I don't have to pull the motor on it right now.  I 
      > wanted to get some flying time in.  Is there any way to reach that bolt, 
      > without pulling it?
      >
      > Andrew
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8294#208294
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
My next aircraft (READY TO FLY!!) - Kitfox IV With  Cont
      O-200
Date: 
Oct 11, 2008
      
      
      Very nice looking aircraft.  Would you give us more information.  How much 
      does it weigh?=2C What did you have to do to get the W & B worked out.  Tha
      nks  Clint
      
      From: dcubj3(at)terra.com.brTo: kitfox-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-List:
       My next aircraft (READY TO FLY!!) - Kitfox IV With Cont O-200Date: Fri=2C 
      
      
      Hi !!
      My aircraft is done!! ... ready to Fly!
      
      More photos you can see at: www.dcubj3.com.br  (sorry only in portuguese)
      Really Happy!!!
      
      
      Francisco DrovettaKitfox IV "brazilian version" with Cont O-200S=E3o Paulo
      =2C SP=2C Brazil
      dcubj3(at)terra.com.br
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: 582 starter not engaging.
From: 
"815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
Date: 
Oct 12, 2008
      
      
      Good morning all.
      Well, I have some good news after looking the situation over.  I tried another
      battery, but it still would not engage.  So we tore the cowling off to see what
      it was doing.  I had someone crank it over, while I looked at it from underneath.
      The mounting bolts were fine, so I new that was not the problem.  I looked
      to me, and forgive me if I use the wrong terms here, like the gear would spin
      forward and latch on to the flywheel, but the pack (pressure plate?) would
      not slide forward.  
      
      There was a lot of old thick lubrication on it.  I cleaned it a little, then sprayed
      it good with some thin lubricant.  
      
      Out of 20 tries after that, it failed to engage just 2 times.  So it now seems
      to engage 9 out of 10 times.  That is a lot better than 0 out of 10 times.  :)
      I will keep an eye on it, but I think that was the whole issue.
      
      Thank you all for all your help and information.
      
      Andrew
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8355#208355
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 12, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Series IV Horizontal Stabilizer Struts
      
      
      All,
               Anybody remember a requirement for increasing the size of 
      the horizontal stab struts from 10-32 to 1/4-28? Bob did it for my 
      aircraft based on ? but I can't find a reference in the SBs or SLs. 
      It might be a series I - III issue that Bob translated to the IV. 
      (I'm asking for another IV owner who has the small struts.)
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Series IV Horizontal Stabilizer Struts
Date: 
Oct 13, 2008
      
      
      Guy,
      
      I recall, and I think it was a IV where a guy had the strut break on short 
      final and was able to make the landing with minimal effects.  The discussion 
      began then.  There was talk about purchase points when moving the aircraft, 
      lifting, and I think infight stresses - aerobatics, etc, but the real 
      concern was that Skystar and Denney were using Socket head bolts for the 
      threaded portion of the stab struts and the stresses induced into these 
      pieces during the weld process.  Soon after that the factory began offering 
      the 1/4" fitting.  I don't recall discussion on whether they went to 
      different threaded ends.  I think there was at least one other instance 
      where a broken end was found on a preflight.  My 900 hours was with the 
      original 10-32 ends, but checking these before each flight became part of 
      the preflight and I paid particular attention to what I held onto when 
      moving the airplane.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn(at)nethere.com>
      Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:36 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Series IV Horizontal Stabilizer Struts
      
      
      >
      > All,
      >         Anybody remember a requirement for increasing the size of the 
      > horizontal stab struts from 10-32 to 1/4-28? Bob did it for my aircraft 
      > based on ? but I can't find a reference in the SBs or SLs. It might be a 
      > series I - III issue that Bob translated to the IV. (I'm asking for 
      > another IV owner who has the small struts.)
      >
      >
      > Guy Buchanan
      > San Diego, CA
      > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: 
test - disregard
Date: 
Oct 13, 2008
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Looking for a model IV water radiator
From: 
"nick4853" <nweiskopf(at)verizon.net>
Date: 
Oct 13, 2008
      
      
      I need to replace my radiator was just checking to see if any one had one to sell.
      Thanks 
      Nick W.
      
      --------
      kitfox !V-1200
      Rotax 912ul
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8540#208540
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Series IV Horizontal Stabilizer Struts
From: 
"Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Date: 
Oct 13, 2008
      
      
      Guy,
      My memory is the sane as lowell's about the horizontal stab struts.
      
      Also, a service letter or bulletin was not issued.  The struts with the 1/4 inch
      threads were offered as an upgrade.
      
      Mine are the original 10-32 threads and I give them special attention with each
      preflight and never lift, sit or push on the horizontal stab.
      
      --------
      Tom Jones
      Classic IV
      503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
      Ellensburg, WA
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8552#208552
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Series IV Horizontal Stabilizer Struts
Date: 
Oct 13, 2008
      
      
      Mine were small, until I got the proper studs and rod end bearings,  
      and welded the studs into the existing struts. I was shocked to see  
      that Skystar used a socket head cap screw for a "stud", when I cut  
      the old one off.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, temporarily grounded as one-half of ignition  
      system was declared bad, and is being replaced.
      
      
      On Oct 12, 2008, at 9:36 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
      
      >
      > All,
      >         Anybody remember a requirement for increasing the size of  
      > the horizontal stab struts from 10-32 to 1/4-28? Bob did it for my  
      > aircraft based on ? but I can't find a reference in the SBs or SLs.  
      > It might be a series I - III issue that Bob translated to the IV.  
      > (I'm asking for another IV owner who has the small struts.)
      >
      >
      > Guy Buchanan
      > San Diego, CA
      > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 13, 2008
From: 
"Rick" <wingsdown(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Kitfox items for sale on ebay
      
      
       Just a heads up. I just placed a few more items on ebay from the old
      model 5 Kitfox. Will be listing some NSI and EA-81 stuff soon.
      
      
      Rick
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 14, 2008
From: 
paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
Subject: 
Re: Series IV Horizontal Stabilizer Struts
      
      
        The factory made an in line change with no documentation then 
      offered a retrofit.
      After a rash of broken ends reported on this list I cut mine off and 
      discovered the factory had welded a cap screw in the end of the 3/8" 
      tube. Very bad practice due the weld messing up the heat treat of the 
      high strength screw which caused them to become brittle. I replaced 
      the thing with proper weld on ends and went to the next size (AN 490 
      insert if I correctly remember??). Later the factory re did the 
      struts and went to larger tubes. Nobody ever reported if the got rid 
      of the screws, but they did go the proper size which is 1/4x28
      You have the correct fix.
      For those with the small thread  you might want to upgrade or do the 
      diy fix. Increasing the tube size is not necessary its the small 
      defective thread that is breaking off. AN parts do not break in this 
      application if properly sized.
      Paul
      ==============
      At 07:36 PM 10/12/2008, you wrote:
      >
      >All,
      >         Anybody remember a requirement for increasing the size of 
      > the horizontal stab struts from 10-32 to 1/4-28? Bob did it for my 
      > aircraft based on ? but I can't find a reference in the SBs or SLs. 
      > It might be a series I - III issue that Bob translated to the IV. 
      > (I'm asking for another IV owner who has the small struts.)
      >
      >
      >Guy Buchanan
      >San Diego, CA
      >K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 14, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Kitfox IV Gas Cap
      
      At 12:16 PM 10/14/2008, you wrote:
      >Sure I saw somewhere in the forums that an automobile gas cap would 
      >work. After 6 years of flying my KF, I taxied out into a weedy lake 
      >without securing the gas cap and lost it.  Need a replacement. Any 
      >suggestions welcome.
      Gary,
               Yes, the auto caps work, but they're ugly and you'll have to 
      put in your vent. Otherwise get them from John and Kitfox.
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Need condition inspection in SC
From: 
"wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>
Date: 
Oct 15, 2008
      
      
      Can anyone recommend an A&P for a condition inspection on my Model 4 in the SC
      area? The guy who did it last year was a nice guy but I'd like to find someone
      more familiar with the airplane and the engine (912UL).
      
      --------
      Luis Rodriguez
      Model IV 1200
      Rotax 912UL
      Flying Weekly
      Laurens, SC (34A)
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8903#208903
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Throttle springs
From: 
"Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
Date: 
Oct 15, 2008
      
      
      I bought the correct springs from Rotax and installed them.  Problem solved.  
      
      Thanks to all for your input.
      
      Jim
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8961#208961
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Aligning the wings
From: 
"Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
Date: 
Oct 15, 2008
      
      
      I just bought my Kitfox and after I got it home, I discovered that the left wing
      is straight from root to tip, but the right wing is twisted leading-edge down
      (washed-out) about 2 degrees.  I realize that this was probably done to make
      it fly level with only the pilot on board, but it is excessive and the plane
      has a built-in right roll, even flown solo.
      
      I am also concerned about a possible stall-spin problem from the different angle
      of attack from one side to the other.
      
      The Builders Manual that I got with the airplane does not discuss wing alignment.
      Can anyone tell me what the factory specs are?  Should both wings be straight?
      Both washed-out a degree of so?  I don't know whether I should eliminate
      the excess wash-out in the right wing, or twist in a little washout on the left
      wing, or both?
      
      Thanks.
      
      Jim Feldmann
      1994 Kitfox Speedster/Rotax 912
      N926JB
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8964#208964
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 15, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Aligning the wings
      
      
      At 04:02 PM 10/15/2008, you wrote:
      >The Builders Manual that I got with the airplane does not discuss 
      >wing alignment.  Can anyone tell me what the factory specs 
      >are?  Should both wings be straight?  Both washed-out a degree of 
      >so?  I don't know whether I should eliminate the excess wash-out in 
      >the right wing, or twist in a little washout on the left wing, or both?
      
      The build manual shows about 1 degree of washout, symmetric, for the 
      long wing measured at the outboard and inboard ribs. It will be a 
      little less for the Speedster. (The long wing adds another rib bay 
      outside the end of the flaperon.) I'd bring it back to factory specs, 
      if possible.
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.  
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Aligning the wings
From: 
"Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
      
      
      Jim Feldmann wrote:
      > I just bought my Kitfox and after I got it home, I discovered that the left wing
      is straight from root to tip, but the right wing is twisted leading-edge down
      (washed-out) about 2 degrees.  I realize that this was probably done to make
      it fly level with only the pilot on board, but it is excessive and the plane
      has a built-in right roll, even flown solo.
      > 
      > I am also concerned about a possible stall-spin problem from the different angle
      of attack from one side to the other.
      > 
      > The Builders Manual that I got with the airplane does not discuss wing alignment.
      Can anyone tell me what the factory specs are?  Should both wings be straight?
      Both washed-out a degree of so?  I don't know whether I should eliminate
      the excess wash-out in the right wing, or twist in a little washout on the
      left wing, or both?
      > 
      > Thanks.
      > 
      > Jim Feldmann
      > 1994 Kitfox Speedster/Rotax 912
      > Flying
      
      
      Jim, the wings are built upside down on saw horses with the saw horse tops level
      or parallel in relation to each other.  A 1/2" block is placed under the tip
      end of the front spar to result in the finished wing having 1/2" of washout between
      the spars per 13 feet.  The speedster wing spars are cut after the ribs
      are attached to achieve an accurate amount of twist.
      
      In other words, the speedster wings have the same twist per foot, but a hair less
      than 1/2" washout from root to tip.
      
      --------
      Tom Jones
      Classic IV
      503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
      Ellensburg, WA
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9034#209034
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Aligning the wings
From: 
"Jim Feldmann" <feldesign(at)earthlink.net>
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
      
      
      Thanks very much guys.  I will re-rig it per those specs and then see what straight
      and level flight trim looks like.
      
      --------
      Jim Feldmann, 3rd owner
      1994 Kitfox Speedster / 912
      Flying
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9041#209041
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Note on Ethanol
From: 
"Rich L" <kitfox812(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
      
      
      This MS Word Document is from the Idaho Aviation Association (IAA).
      Thought it might be of interest.
      Rich L
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9063#209063
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/discussion_of_ethanol_mandates_281.doc
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net>
Subject: 
Note on Ethanol
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
      
      
      Rich,
      
      When was this article written? Last year? The date on the top is October 18.
      Two days from now. If so, a lot has happened since then. As I understand it
      the Idaho and Washington legislation that was passed regarding ethanol fuel
      mandated that "91 octane fuel is too made available for aviation and
      recreational use". I just dare you to find it and no distributor, that I can
      find, wants to talk about it.
      
      Oh yes, I dropped a note to the Idaho Dept. of Aviation about his matter and
      did not even get the courtesy of a response.
      
      Frank Miles
      Lewiston, Idaho
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich L
      Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:16 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Note on Ethanol
      
      
      This MS Word Document is from the Idaho Aviation Association (IAA).
      Thought it might be of interest.
      Rich L
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9063#209063
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/discussion_of_ethanol_mandates_281.doc
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Note on Ethanol
From: 
"Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
      
      
      For what it's worth.  I have been using Union 76 premium 92 octane in Ellensburg,
      WA.  I have been testing for alcohol and as of 10-13 have not found any in
      76's premium.  I use the EAA recommended water in a jar test.  I was using Chevron
      premium until the alcohol showed up about mid July this year.
      
      --------
      Tom Jones
      Classic IV
      503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
      Ellensburg, WA
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9098#209098
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Header Tank Venting
From: 
"SkySteve" <Wilson(at)REinfo.org>
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
      
      
      My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks via
      two vent lines (one to each wing tank).  I was advised to install a shut off valve
      in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling the fuel tanks,
      then shut the vent valves for flight.  
      
      It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel starvation
      when the wing tanks were full of fuel.  Apparently air had mixed with the
      fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from the wing tanks
      to the header tank.  The result was when the header tank ran out of fuel the
      engine stopped due to fuel starvation. 
      
      Is this true?  Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent lines and
      close those valves for flight?
      
      --------
      Steve Wilson
      Huntsville, UT
      Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
      912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive 
      Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
From: 
tc9008(at)aol.com
      
      I have flown a Kitfox IV? 582 since 2004 and have had a problem.
      Travis
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: SkySteve <Wilson(at)REinfo.org>
      Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 8:04 pm
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks via
      
      two vent lines (one to each wing tank).  I was advised to install a shut off 
      valve in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling the fuel 
      tanks, then shut the vent valves for flight.  
      
      It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel 
      starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel.  Apparently air had mixed with
      
      the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from the wing 
      tanks to the header tank.  The result was when the header tank ran out of fuel
      
      the engine stopped due to fuel starvation. 
      
      Is this true?  Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent lines and
      
      close those valves for flight?
      
      --------
      Steve Wilson
      Huntsville, UT
      Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
      912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive 
      Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
From: 
tc9008(at)aol.com
      
      I have flown a Kitfox IV? 582 since 2004 and have had a problem.
      Travis
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: SkySteve <Wilson(at)REinfo.org>
      Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 8:04 pm
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks via
      
      two vent lines (one to each wing tank).  I was advised to install a shut off 
      valve in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling the fuel 
      tanks, then shut the vent valves for flight.  
      
      It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel 
      starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel.  Apparently air had mixed with
      
      the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from the wing 
      tanks to the header tank.  The result was when the header tank ran out of fuel
      
      the engine stopped due to fuel starvation. 
      
      Is this true?  Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent lines and
      
      close those valves for flight?
      
      --------
      Steve Wilson
      Huntsville, UT
      Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
      912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive 
      Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Note on Ethanol
From: 
"Rich L" <kitfox812(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
      
      
      That note just came to me from the IAA.  The October 18 is the date of the board meeting where this will be discussed.  Some of the information was written up on the latest newsletter on the IAA web site.  (www.flyidaho.org).
      Here are some of the local stations which sell non-contaminated premium fuel:
      
      Dykes Exon in Bonners Ferry has a Pacific Pride Pump in back.
      The Coop in Sandpoint.
      
      I saw a list of other stations mostly in southern Idaho .
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9111#209111
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Note on Ethanol
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Thu, October 16, 2008 4:56 pm, Tom Jones wrote:
      >
      > For what it's worth.  I have been using Union 76 premium 92 octane in Ellensburg,
      WA.
      > I have been testing for alcohol and as of 10-13 have not found any in 76's premium.
      I
      > use the EAA recommended water in a jar test.  I was using Chevron premium until
      the
      > alcohol showed up about mid July this year.
      
      I can verify that Chevron is using 10% Ethanol in Bellevue WA and possibly all
      of
      Western Washington. It even says so on the pumps. Chevron and Exxon-Mobil are building
      Bio-Diesel blending plants in Washington. The Exxon plant in Spokane will be fully
      operational in December.
      
      One thing good is that MTBE is dead. Estimates say E90 costs more and gives a uniform
      8% reduction in fuel mileage. It has a lower flash point and higher vapor pressure
      than gasoline so this is genuine concern with operating altitude even if you've
      solved
      the problems with gaskets, seals and corrosion.
      
      Pipeline operators are not blending ethanol because they claim the corrosivity
      of
      ethanol threatens the integrity of the pipelines. As a result, ethanol is blended
      at
      the pipeline delivery points, chiefly Harbor Island in Seattle so it is likely
      that
      all gasoline has the 10% blend in Western Washington.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Thu, October 16, 2008 5:04 pm, SkySteve wrote:
      >
      > My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks via
      two
      > vent lines (one to each wing tank).  I was advised to install a shut off valve
      in each
      > vent line and to open those vent lines when filling the fuel tanks, then shut
      the vent
      > valves for flight.
      >
      > It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel starvation
      > when the wing tanks were full of fuel.  Apparently air had mixed with the fuel
      in the
      > vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from the wing tanks to the header
      > tank.  The result was when the header tank ran out of fuel the engine stopped
      due to
      > fuel starvation.
      >
      > Is this true?  Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent lines
      and close
      > those valves for flight?
      
      I'd have to see a drawing but that doesn't make sense as I understand the
      configuration. What will block the vent line is low points or multiple low points
      such
      that they act as a trap with fuel in it and air on both sides. It can't siphon
      and
      causes hydraulic blockage. As long as the vent line goes up continuously and
      terminates in an air gap, you should never get a condition where there is hydraulic
      blockage.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
      
      
      Steve,
      
      I don't understand the thinking on the double vent unless it was done to 
      prevent the often seen uneven draining of the wing tanks.  This phenomenon 
      has been discussed very often on the list and in one instance in the wilds 
      of Idaho it resulted in a panic stop to check for an obstruction in the fuel 
      lines.  After carefully measuring fuel flow from each tank, we were finally 
      able to convince the troubled pilot that the fuel flow was fine and wasn't 
      going to have to put it down over the Sawtooth Mountains  because of the 
      uneven fuel use from his wing tanks.  Your double vents are a one off design 
      change from the factory configuration.
      
      I don't think you will find any instances of full tank fuel starvation 
      proper fuel line routing and with the vents in place and putting valves in 
      the vent lines and closing them in flight is contrary to the current design. 
      Putting valves in the vent lines would conceivably serve to  make fuel 
      system maintenance easier, but it is a lot of hardware to simply  avoid 
      clamping the lines if maintenence is necessary.  Keep in mind, the following 
      service letter should clear up the factory's view on the instances you refer 
      to. 
      http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_letters/sl22.htmhttp://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_letters/sl22.htm 
      The referenced Service Bulletin will continue the factory comments: 
      http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_bulletins/sb29.htmKeep
      
      It is a fact that lots of us have seen what we believe to be design 
      weaknesses in the factory scheme and have modified according to our own 
      perception of safe, but many of the modifications fly in the face of a fine 
      history of reliability.  I had 900 hours on my Model IV when I put it on the 
      ground because of an oil pressure drop due to a blockage of the oil line to 
      the pump - foreign object, and I have three friends who I flew with 
      regularly that each had nearly 1000 hours on Model IVs.  All with one vent 
      line to the right wing tank, and all with no hint of fuel flow issues with 
      the factory configuration.  Keep in mind that in a fairly steep descent with 
      the aft ported wing tanks, it is possible to unport the tanks if the fuel 
      level is below a certain amount.  I found that to be true during the 30 
      minute descent from 12,000 ft over the Sierras, to my field elevation of 
      1300 ft.  With the factory design, the header tank immediately resumed 
      filling from the wing tanks after reducing the descent for a time.  And that 
      was with four gallons remaining in each tank measured on the ground.  I was 
      descending at 400 fpm at just below redline on the ASI.
      
      My thought is to not close the valves in flight.  I am curious about the 
      source of the advice.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "SkySteve" <Wilson(at)REinfo.org>
      Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 5:04 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      >
      > My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks 
      > via two vent lines (one to each wing tank).  I was advised to install a 
      > shut off valve in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling 
      > the fuel tanks, then shut the vent valves for flight.
      >
      > It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel 
      > starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel.  Apparently air had 
      > mixed with the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow 
      > from the wing tanks to the header tank.  The result was when the header 
      > tank ran out of fuel the engine stopped due to fuel starvation.
      >
      > Is this true?  Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent 
      > lines and close those valves for flight?
      >
      > --------
      > Steve Wilson
      > Huntsville, UT
      > Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
      > 912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
      > Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 16, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      At 05:04 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
      >It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to 
      >fuel starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel.  Apparently 
      >air had mixed with the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped 
      >the fuel flow from the wing tanks to the header tank.  The result 
      >was when the header tank ran out of fuel the engine stopped due to 
      >fuel starvation.
      >
      >Is this true?  Should I install shut off valves in each of my two 
      >vent lines and close those valves for flight?
      
      Steve,
               Thanks for asking this question. I have finally convinced 
      myself that this is possible. It's not vapor lock, but if your wing 
      tank fuel feed line were to rise above the wing tank fuel level 
      before travelling to the header tank, and the header was vented to 
      atmosphere, the wing tank would stop feeding. (There would be no way 
      to siphon from the wing tank because the header tank was vented to 
      atmosphere.) Therefore you'd have to block the vent to force fuel to 
      siphon from the wing tank. My system without the vent valve works 
      because my wing tank feed lines run down-hill to the header tank; no 
      siphon is necessary. (I could have a problem on an extremely long, 
      extremely steep descent, because my fuel lines run aft from the wing 
      tanks.) So I guess the answer becomes: either your wing tank fuel 
      lines run down-hill, or you install the valves.
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Steven Didier <steve.didier(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Note on Ethanol
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      one of our local flyers swears that Jacob's Oil in Grangeville still  
      sells ethanol free premium.
      Steve
      On Oct 16, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Rich L wrote:
      
      >
      > That note just came to me from the IAA.  The October 18 is the date  
      > of the board meeting where this will be discussed.  Some of the  
      > information was written up on the latest newsletter on the IAA web  
      > site.  (www.flyidaho.org).
      > Here are some of the local stations which sell non-contaminated  
      > premium fuel:
      >
      > Dykes Exon in Bonners Ferry has a Pacific Pride Pump in back.
      > The Coop in Sandpoint.
      >
      > I saw a list of other stations mostly in southern Idaho .
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9111#209111
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: 
test - disregard
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Re: Note on Ethanol
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      As to whether MTBE being dead is a good thing or not is something I haven't
      considered.  It certainly isn't as toxic as lead or as destructive as
      Ethanol.
      
      I use the word destructive in regard to ethanol because of the impact
      ethanol production on commercial levels has on the environment and the
      additional impact it has had on our (world) food supply.  Increases in CO2
      given off during the fermentation process make the fuel worse than anything
      else available.  Add to all that the concerns of ethanol in flight and
      corrosion and one has to wonder who sold this bill of lies to legislators
      and can they be hired by anyone??  I have a shoreline or rock I'd like to
      sell at around $4.00 per pound.  I'll cut a deal with anyone to sell bog at
      $5.00 a gallon.
      
      All that is interesting and to be honest thrashed to death.  
      
      I only wanted to comment on why pipeline owners may not be interested in
      sending ethanol through their pipelines.  Corrosion is a serious
      consideration but far from the only one.
      
      Pipelines transport many different types of fossil fuels...  Gasoline,
      Diesel, motor oil etc.  So as not to leave their pipes full of someone
      else's product and contamination of cargo they use salt water pumped into
      the pipes between shipments.  Unfortunately ethanol is more than happy to
      form a true solution with this water.  This means they would have to build
      from the ground up a dedicated distribution network for ethanol.  Meters
      would have to be installed at each terminal to measure the amount of product
      delivered to any particular terminal.  Mixing the ethanol with the gas will
      still have to be done locally.  This may mean some places like Alaska will
      just have to stop driving gas powered cars because delivering ethanol there
      will be a nightmare followed by the nightmare of trying to start a car in
      subzero temperatures on ethanol.  The next few years will be a great time to
      invest in manufacturing tanker trucks.  BTW where is the nearest distillery
      to Washington DC?  Maybe if congressmen had to walk more they would think
      about the laws they pass.
      
      A short while ago a guy from Brazil said  Brazil moves its ethanol around by
      tanker ships with no problems...  Anyone ever see a Brazilian flagged
      tanker???  I live on the side of the North Atlantic and I have never seen
      one.  In fact I've never seen any ship with a Brazilian flag.  This tells me
      they are a scarce as hens' teeth and they don't go too far from home.  Most
      probably they are using Iberian flagged vessels.  Nuff said about that.  
      
      No wonder North American shippers are not interested in carrying a load of
      eth.  Even our tramp steamers are much better than some foreign flags.
      Please note the word "some", because there are a lot of seagoing nations who
      know tricks to teach fish about the sea.
      
      
      Noel Loveys
      AME Intern, RPP
      Kitfox III-AIvo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul A. Franz,
      P.E.
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 1:54 AM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Note on Ethanol
      
      
      
      
      On Thu, October 16, 2008 4:56 pm, Tom Jones wrote:
      >
      > For what it's worth.  I have been using Union 76 premium 92 octane in
      Ellensburg, WA.
      > I have been testing for alcohol and as of 10-13 have not found any in 76's
      premium.  I
      > use the EAA recommended water in a jar test.  I was using Chevron premium
      until the
      > alcohol showed up about mid July this year.
      
      I can verify that Chevron is using 10% Ethanol in Bellevue WA and possibly
      all of
      Western Washington. It even says so on the pumps. Chevron and Exxon-Mobil
      are building
      Bio-Diesel blending plants in Washington. The Exxon plant in Spokane will be
      fully
      operational in December.
      
      One thing good is that MTBE is dead. Estimates say E90 costs more and gives
      a uniform
      8% reduction in fuel mileage. It has a lower flash point and higher vapor
      pressure
      than gasoline so this is genuine concern with operating altitude even if
      you've solved
      the problems with gaskets, seals and corrosion.
      
      Pipeline operators are not blending ethanol because they claim the
      corrosivity of
      ethanol threatens the integrity of the pipelines. As a result, ethanol is
      blended at
      the pipeline delivery points, chiefly Harbor Island in Seattle so it is
      likely that
      all gasoline has the 10% blend in Western Washington.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
From: 
"SkySteve" <Wilson(at)REinfo.org>
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue.  What I am getting so far
      is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, but closing the venting
      will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP in some instances.  Would that be
      a accurate summary?
      
      --------
      Steve Wilson
      Huntsville, UT
      Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
      912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive 
      Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      Steve, in a word, No.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "SkySteve" <Wilson(at)REinfo.org>
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:29 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      >
      > Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue.  What I am getting 
      > so far is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, but closing 
      > the venting will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP in some 
      > instances.  Would that be a accurate summary?
      >
      > --------
      > Steve Wilson
      > Huntsville, UT
      > Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
      > 912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
      > Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      If as you suggest the header tank vent was OFF then in Lowell's example or other
      similar scenario the automatic refilling of the header tank would be prevented
      and air/fuel blockages of the two feed lines from the wing tanks WOULD likely
      slow or prevent flow to the header tank and encourage fuel starvation with
      adequate fuel remaining in the wings.
      
      Add my name to the many with asymetrical fuel flow from the tanks but no evidence
      of the header tank being deprived.  I don't have a low fuel warning but there
      are many out there to monitor the possiblity of starvation.  Were there any
      warnings that were triggered as a result of the asymetrical draw.  What are the
      specifics of the "many crashes due to fuel starvation"?  Sounds like urban
      myth to me.
      
      John Kerr
      Classic IV, 912ul, 780 hours.
      Logan UT
      
      -------------- Original message -------------- 
      From: "SkySteve" <Wilson(at)REinfo.org> 
      
      > 
      > Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue. What I am getting so far
      
      > is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, but closing the venting
      
      > will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP in some instances. Would that be
      a 
      > accurate summary? 
      > 
      > -------- 
      > Steve Wilson 
      > Huntsville, UT 
      > Kitfox Model 1- 85DD 
      > 912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive 
      > Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Read this topic online here: 
      > 
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      
If as you suggest the header tank vent was OFF then in Lowell's example or
      other similar scenario the automatic refilling of the header tank would be prevented
      and air/fuel blockages of the two feed lines from the wing tanks WOULD
      likely slow or prevent flow to the header tank and encourage fuel starvation
      with adequate fuel remaining in the wings.
      
 
      
Add my name to the many with asymetrical fuel flow from the tanks but no evidence
      of the header tank being deprived.  I don't have a low fuel warning
      but there are many out there to monitor the possiblity of starvation. 
      Were there any warnings that were triggered as a result of the asymetrical draw. 
      What are the specifics of the "many crashes due to fuel starvation"? 
      Sounds like urban myth to me.
      
 
      
John Kerr
      
Classic IV, 912ul, 780 hours.
      
Logan UT
      
 
       =====
       UOTE><
      /body>
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
From: 
"n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in the fuel
      tanks. This is the culprit for  the uneven fuel flow problems in kitfoxes.
      All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot more fuel 
      flow from one tank than the other.
      
      Jeff.
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the  
      airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of  
      fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I  
      banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and  
      I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,  
      and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into  
      my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying  
      this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and  
      what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get  
      fuel more often.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
      On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
      
      >
      > Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in  
      > the fuel
      > tanks. This is the culprit for  the uneven fuel flow problems in  
      > kitfoxes.
      > All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot  
      > more fuel
      > flow from one tank than the other.
      >
      > Jeff.
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
A H <lowandslow1(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Fuel Vent Lines
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      Just as a word clarification=2C so that terms aren't used incorrectly.  The
       fuel system in a Kitfox is "gravity feed" and fuel pressure to the carb or
       engine fuel pump is "head pressure" from a gravity fed fuel tank.  Strictl
      y gravity only.  There is no "siphon action".  Designers have to determine 
      that the fuel tank is high enough in normal flying/attitudes (nose high/nos
      e low) and fuel line size adequate to provide a certain fuel pressure or he
      ad pressure for the fuel consumption of the engine used.  If your engine in
      stallation requires additional pressure to the engine pump than head pressu
      re can provide=2C an electric pump must be installed prior to the engine pu
      mp or carb (ala low wing aircraft).  Fuel line size and head pressure to th
      e engine is all that insures that an adequate supply of fuel is maintained 
      to the metering device=2C unless you have a fuel pump located at each tank 
      outlet to supply increased fuel flow.  Most small aircraft under 140 hp=2C 
      3/8" line is used=2C that will that will supply more enough fuel for engine
       consumption.  As engines get larger=2C fuel line size goes up=2C 1/2"=2C 5
      /8"=2C etc.  The only time fuel is "sucked" or "siphoned" from a tank is if
       you have a pump located at the tank.
      
      It is extremely important that the fuel lines and the vent lines be angled 
      down to the header tank or on a constant slope=2C problem areas are at the 
      wing pivot and the horizontal routing to the header tank.  Especially in th
      e vent line.  Air and fuel must have an unimpeded path and a way to get out
       and into the upper wing tank=2C if both lines to one tank have a low or hi
      gh spot  you could run into a fuel lock situation on that side.  Installed 
      correctly and under normal flying and fuel conditions=2C the vent line has 
      fuel in it and should correspond to the level of fuel in the tank.  In a lo
      ng=2C steep=2C nose down descent with low fuel=2C your fuel pickup will be 
      higher than the fuel level in the tank=2C as the fuel runs to forward to th
      e front of the tank.  The tank is still vented=2C fuel to the header tank i
      s supplied only by the remaining fuel in the fuel line from the pickup to t
      he header tank.  Leveling off routinely will then raise the fuel level abov
      e the fuel pickup/screen and will flow back down into the header tank.  The
       air being displace by the fuel will go up the vent line and into the fuel 
      tank.  If the vent were blocked then air would have to travel upstream agai
      nst the fuel going down into the header tank.  If it is on a constant slope
       this should not cause a problem other than fuel will not fill the header t
      ank as fast as it has to make room for air in the line going up.  This is w
      hy the vent line is important.
      
      If you look at aerobatic biplanes with a center section upper wing mounted 
      fuel tank=2C you will see a forward fuel pickup. This is for nose down atti
      tudes.  Most Cessna's have a forward pick up location=2C we can't because o
      f the folding wing design.  The fuel line would have to run down the forwar
      d doorpost frame. (Which it does in a Cessna)  
      
      There is nothing wrong with a single vent line to one tank or a vent line t
      o each tank.  Because we have a folding wing design we cannot have a interc
      onnecting vent line (wing tank-to-wing tank) like a Cessna that they use to
       help even the fuel burn from each wing. In a perfect world (no slip nor sk
      id=2C wings level=2C no turbulence=2C etc) Kitfox dual vent lines are used 
      to keep fuel burn equal.  The fuel vents on the "filler caps" provide a ver
      y slight positive pressure in the tanks=2C but mainly to fill the void of u
      sed fuel.  Make sure the caps are on correct and the gaskets are sealing.  
      One of the reasons for the long periscope vent line on the cap is to get th
      e vent into static atmospheric air.  The low pressure on top of the wing wh
      ere the fuel cap is can cause siphoning of fuel=2C which is why a gasket ch
      eck is a good idea.
      
      The reason that the vent line from the header tank needs to be a constant s
      lope to the tank vent boss is to ensure that you don't create a "trap" for 
      air.  A dual vent line system helps to ensure positive flow to the engine j
      ust incase one vent line were to become blocked. 
      
      Depending on your engine installation it is possible run the fuel low enoug
      h that there is not enough head pressure to supply the carb=2C even though 
      there may be fuel in the header tank.  I suggest a standby electric fuel pu
      mp (Faucet 4-6 gph) be mounted below the header tank outlet that can be tur
      n on during takeoff/landing and low fuel situations.  I installed one in my
       fuel system.  To insure positive pressure.
      
      I would:
      I would check the fuel caps first to make sure they are not blocked=2C poin
      ting forward and the gasket seals.  
      Ensure that the fuel and vent lines to each tank are on a constant slope to
       the tank.
      Verify that the fuel level in the vent line corresponds to the level of fue
      l in the tank.  
      
      Andy
      _________________________________________________________________
      You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      At 06:29 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:
      >Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue.  What I am 
      >getting so far is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, 
      >but closing the venting will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP 
      >in some instances.  Would that be a accurate summary?
      
               I think so, as long as you assure the header tank is 
      reasonably full. With the vents closed any vapor in the header tank 
      will have to / try to migrate up the fuel tank feed lines. I'm not 
      sure but that this buoyancy might be able to work against the fuel 
      tank head pressure and prevent its feeding. Again, I've never heard 
      of it, and I used 3/8" line from my wing fuel tanks to the header 
      tank to make sure vapor and fuel could exchange freely.
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      Lynn:
      
      What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me practice as
      part of a forced approach.  Even the certified spam cans have issues with
      fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
      
      My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank..  The left tank is only
      half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow.  I also have
      a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the header starts
      to run out long before it does.  When I install the 912 I was thinking about
      relocating the header behind the seat.  In that location I will no longer be
      able to see the vent line.
      
      Noel
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the  
      airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of  
      fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I  
      banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and  
      I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,  
      and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into  
      my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying  
      this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and  
      what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get  
      fuel more often.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
      On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
      
      >
      > Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in  
      > the fuel
      > tanks. This is the culprit for  the uneven fuel flow problems in  
      > kitfoxes.
      > All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot  
      > more fuel
      > flow from one tank than the other.
      >
      > Jeff.
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      Noel-
      I also have a clear vent line running up to my right tank, which is  
      equal in size to the left tank. However, I can see my vent line even  
      with the header tank behind the right side of the seat. My fuel line  
      and the vent line run parallel to the diagonal braces behind the  
      seat, and all I need to do is glance over my right shoulder  
      occasionally to check for fuel in both the clear glass Purolator  
      filter, and the clear vent line. I only *need* to do this when I know  
      that the fuel tanks are getting low, but I check it every so often  
      just out of habit. Pucker time comes when I allow myself to get low  
      on fuel and have to make a descent. Under these conditions...and I've  
      done this maybe 4-5 times (bad, Lynn, BAD)...like Guy suggested, just  
      leveling off for a moment will let some fuel fill the header, shut  
      off the light, and the pucker relaxes.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
      On Oct 17, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn:
      >
      > What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me  
      > practice as
      > part of a forced approach.  Even the certified spam cans have  
      > issues with
      > fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
      >
      > My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank..  The left tank is  
      > only
      > half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow.  I  
      > also have
      > a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the  
      > header starts
      > to run out long before it does.  When I install the 912 I was  
      > thinking about
      > relocating the header behind the seat.  In that location I will no  
      > longer be
      > able to see the vent line.
      >
      > Noel
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn  
      > Matteson
      > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      >
      >
      > I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
      > airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
      > fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
      > banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
      > I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
      > and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
      > my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
      > this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
      > what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
      > fuel more often.
      >
      > Lynn Matteson
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      > Sensenich 62x46
      > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
      > system
      >
      >
      > On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
      >> the fuel
      >> tanks. This is the culprit for  the uneven fuel flow problems in
      >> kitfoxes.
      >> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
      >> more fuel
      >> flow from one tank than the other.
      >>
      >> Jeff.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Read this topic online here:
      >>
      >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      I have yet to land a plane with less than an hour of fuel on board.   When I
      worked at the AMO ( Canadian equivalent of an FBO) in Gander there was a TC
      poster in the Heli part of the hangar which said "Fuel is time"...  Kinda
      remembered that.  Also the only time you have too much gas is when you're on
      fire :-)
      
      Most of my flights in the Kitfox I intentionally tried to get the weight up
      to the 950 MTOW.  It's a bit harder getting a heavy plane up on step when
      flying floats.
      
      Noel
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 8:24 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      Noel-
      I also have a clear vent line running up to my right tank, which is  
      equal in size to the left tank. However, I can see my vent line even  
      with the header tank behind the right side of the seat. My fuel line  
      and the vent line run parallel to the diagonal braces behind the  
      seat, and all I need to do is glance over my right shoulder  
      occasionally to check for fuel in both the clear glass Purolator  
      filter, and the clear vent line. I only *need* to do this when I know  
      that the fuel tanks are getting low, but I check it every so often  
      just out of habit. Pucker time comes when I allow myself to get low  
      on fuel and have to make a descent. Under these conditions...and I've  
      done this maybe 4-5 times (bad, Lynn, BAD)...like Guy suggested, just  
      leveling off for a moment will let some fuel fill the header, shut  
      off the light, and the pucker relaxes.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
      On Oct 17, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn:
      >
      > What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me  
      > practice as
      > part of a forced approach.  Even the certified spam cans have  
      > issues with
      > fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
      >
      > My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank..  The left tank is  
      > only
      > half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow.  I  
      > also have
      > a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the  
      > header starts
      > to run out long before it does.  When I install the 912 I was  
      > thinking about
      > relocating the header behind the seat.  In that location I will no  
      > longer be
      > able to see the vent line.
      >
      > Noel
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn  
      > Matteson
      > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      >
      >
      > I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
      > airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
      > fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
      > banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
      > I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
      > and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
      > my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
      > this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
      > what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
      > fuel more often.
      >
      > Lynn Matteson
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      > Sensenich 62x46
      > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
      > system
      >
      >
      > On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
      >> the fuel
      >> tanks. This is the culprit for  the uneven fuel flow problems in
      >> kitfoxes.
      >> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
      >> more fuel
      >> flow from one tank than the other.
      >>
      >> Jeff.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Read this topic online here:
      >>
      >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"John W. Hart" <helili(at)chahtatushka.net>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
      
      
      I don't mind flying a half tank of gas...............as long as it's the top
      half!
      
      John Hart
      KF IV, NSI Subaru
      Wilburton, OK
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:18 PM
      Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      I have yet to land a plane with less than an hour of fuel on board.   When I
      worked at the AMO ( Canadian equivalent of an FBO) in Gander there was a TC
      poster in the Heli part of the hangar which said "Fuel is time"...  Kinda
      remembered that.  Also the only time you have too much gas is when you're on
      fire :-)
      
      Most of my flights in the Kitfox I intentionally tried to get the weight up
      to the 950 MTOW.  It's a bit harder getting a heavy plane up on step when
      flying floats.
      
      Noel
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 8:24 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      Noel-
      I also have a clear vent line running up to my right tank, which is  
      equal in size to the left tank. However, I can see my vent line even  
      with the header tank behind the right side of the seat. My fuel line  
      and the vent line run parallel to the diagonal braces behind the  
      seat, and all I need to do is glance over my right shoulder  
      occasionally to check for fuel in both the clear glass Purolator  
      filter, and the clear vent line. I only *need* to do this when I know  
      that the fuel tanks are getting low, but I check it every so often  
      just out of habit. Pucker time comes when I allow myself to get low  
      on fuel and have to make a descent. Under these conditions...and I've  
      done this maybe 4-5 times (bad, Lynn, BAD)...like Guy suggested, just  
      leveling off for a moment will let some fuel fill the header, shut  
      off the light, and the pucker relaxes.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
      On Oct 17, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn:
      >
      > What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me  
      > practice as
      > part of a forced approach.  Even the certified spam cans have  
      > issues with
      > fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
      >
      > My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank..  The left tank is  
      > only
      > half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow.  I  
      > also have
      > a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the  
      > header starts
      > to run out long before it does.  When I install the 912 I was  
      > thinking about
      > relocating the header behind the seat.  In that location I will no  
      > longer be
      > able to see the vent line.
      >
      > Noel
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn  
      > Matteson
      > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      >
      >
      > I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
      > airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
      > fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
      > banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
      > I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
      > and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
      > my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
      > this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
      > what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
      > fuel more often.
      >
      > Lynn Matteson
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      > Sensenich 62x46
      > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
      > system
      >
      >
      > On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
      >> the fuel
      >> tanks. This is the culprit for  the uneven fuel flow problems in
      >> kitfoxes.
      >> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
      >> more fuel
      >> flow from one tank than the other.
      >>
      >> Jeff.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Read this topic online here:
      >>
      >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
From: 
paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      Lots of examples Just do your homework
      
      Agree. Asymmetrical fuel flow from the tanks has nothing to do with 
      starvation. Fixes for it are not necessary.  Just follow the details 
      on the install and the issue will go away. Nice fat lines are also 
      good and no restrictions in any of the lines are also good. No filter 
      or other components in the header to tank lines helps that situation.
      Paul
      
      At 09:26 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:
      >If as you suggest the header tank vent was OFF then in Lowell's 
      >example or other similar scenario the automatic refilling of the 
      >header tank would be prevented and air/fuel blockages of the two 
      >feed lines from the wing tanks WOULD likely slow or prevent flow to 
      >the header tank and encourage fuel starvation with adequate fuel 
      >remaining in the wings.
      >
      >Add my name to the many with asymetrical fuel flow from the tanks 
      >but no evidence of the header tank being deprived.  I don't have a 
      >low fuel warning but there are many out there to monitor the 
      >possiblity of starvation.  Were there any warnings that were 
      >triggered as a result of the asymetrical draw.  What are the 
      >specifics of the "many crashes due to fuel starvation"?  Sounds like 
      >urban myth to me.
      >
      >John Kerr
      >Classic IV, 912ul, 780 hours.
      >Logan UT
      >
      >====== UOTE>< /body>
      >
      >
      ><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
      ><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
From: 
paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      Steve.
      NO -NO -NO You do not understand.
      You are getting advice from someone who has no understanding of the 
      physics of fluid flow. You must vent the header. Valves in the header 
      tank vents are just plain crazy..
        Follow the instructions in the build manual. The factory guys are 
      real engineers and have thought thru many things you may not even 
      consider. And if you don't have the latest fuel system version go get 
      it. And if you have a flying system that is not the latest system 
      change it. As several have pointed out this in not the place to come 
      up with something that will kill you.
      
      Remember screwed up fuel systems cause the most downed Kitfoxes of 
      any other kind of failure. Probably because the builder did not 
      understand the factory setup and changed it to his own design. Or 
      just did not follow the instructions.
      
      Please Read Andys message below and try to understand it
      Paul
      ======
      Just as a word clarification, so that terms aren't used 
      incorrectly.  The fuel system in a Kitfox is "gravity feed" and fuel 
      pressure to the carb or engine fuel pump is "head pressure" from a 
      gravity fed fuel tank.  Strictly gravity only.  There is no "siphon 
      action".  Designers have to determine that the fuel tank is high 
      enough in normal flying/attitudes (nose high/nose low) and fuel line 
      size adequate to provide a certain fuel pressure or head pressure for 
      the fuel consumption of the engine used.  If your engine installation 
      requires additional pressure to the engine pump than head pressure 
      can provide, an electric pump must be installed prior to the engine 
      pump or carb (ala low wing aircraft).  Fuel line size and head 
      pressure to the engine is all that insures that an adequate supply of 
      fuel is maintained to the metering device, unless you have a fuel 
      pump located at each tank outlet to supply increased fuel flow.  Most 
      small aircraft under 140 hp, 3/8" line is used, that will that will 
      supply more enough fuel for engine consumption.  As engines get 
      larger, fuel line size goes up, 1/2", 5/8", etc.  The only time fuel 
      is "sucked" or "siphoned" from a tank is if you have a pump located 
      at the tank.
      
      It is extremely important that the fuel lines and the vent lines be 
      angled down to the header tank or on a constant slope, problem areas 
      are at the wing pivot and the horizontal routing to the header 
      tank.  Especially in the vent line.  Air and fuel must have an 
      unimpeded path and a way to get out and into the upper wing tank, if 
      both lines to one tank have a low or high spot  you could run into a 
      fuel lock situation on that side.  Installed correctly and under 
      normal flying and fuel conditions, the vent line has fuel in it and 
      should correspond to the level of fuel in the tank.  In a long, 
      steep, nose down descent with low fuel, your fuel pickup will be 
      higher than the fuel level in the tank, as the fuel runs to forward 
      to the front of the tank.  The tank is still vented, fuel to the 
      header tank is supplied only by the remaining fuel in the fuel line 
      from the pickup to the header tank.  Leveling off routinely will then 
      raise the fuel level above the fuel pickup/screen and will flow back 
      down into the header tank.  The air being displace by the fuel will 
      go up the vent line and into the fuel tank.  If the vent were blocked 
      then air would have to travel upstream against the fuel going down 
      into the header tank.  If it is on a constant slope this should not 
      cause a problem other than fuel will not fill the header tank as fast 
      as it has to make room for air in the line going up.  This is why the 
      vent line is important.
      
      If you look at aerobatic biplanes with a center section upper wing 
      mounted fuel tank, you will see a forward fuel pickup. This is for 
      nose down attitudes.  Most Cessna's have a forward pick up location, 
      we can't because of the folding wing design.  The fuel line would 
      have to run down the forward doorpost frame. (Which it does in a Cessna)
      
      There is nothing wrong with a single vent line to one tank or a vent 
      line to each tank.  Because we have a folding wing design we cannot 
      have a interconnecting vent line (wing tank-to-wing tank) like a 
      Cessna that they use to help even the fuel burn from each wing. In a 
      perfect world (no slip nor skid, wings level, no turbulence, etc) 
      Kitfox dual vent lines are used to keep fuel burn equal.  The fuel 
      vents on the "filler caps" provide a very slight positive pressure in 
      the tanks, but mainly to fill the void of used fuel.  Make sure the 
      caps are on correct and the gaskets are sealing.  One of the reasons 
      for the long periscope vent line on the cap is to get the vent into 
      static atmospheric air.  The low pressure on top of the wing where 
      the fuel cap is can cause siphoning of fuel, which is why a gasket 
      check is a good idea.
      
      The reason that the vent line from the header tank needs to be a 
      constant slope to the tank vent boss is to ensure that you don't 
      create a "trap" for air.  A dual vent line system helps to ensure 
      positive flow to the engine just incase one vent line were to become blocked.
      
      Depending on your engine installation it is possible run the fuel low 
      enough that there is not enough head pressure to supply the carb, 
      even though there may be fuel in the header tank.  I suggest a 
      standby electric fuel pump (Faucet 4-6 gph) be mounted below the 
      header tank outlet that can be turn on during takeoff/landing and low 
      fuel situations.  I installed one in my fuel system.  To insure 
      positive pressure.
      
      I would:
      I would check the fuel caps first to make sure they are not blocked, 
      pointing forward and the gasket seals.
      Ensure that the fuel and vent lines to each tank are on a constant 
      slope to the tank.
      Verify that the fuel level in the vent line corresponds to the level 
      of fuel in the tank.
      
      Andy
      ============
      
      At 06:29 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:
      >
      >Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue.  What I am 
      >getting so far is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, 
      >but closing the venting will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP 
      >in some instances.  Would that be a accurate summary?
      >
      >--------
      >Steve Wilson
      >Huntsville, UT
      >Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
      >912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
      >Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
      >
      >
      >Read this topic online here:
      >
      >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 17, 2008
From: 
"Rick" <wingsdown(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
EA-81 parts
      
       Just listed on ebay one steel and one aluminum EA-81 oil pan. I was
      going to add the link but I don't know if that violates the policy. 
      
      Rick
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Michael Logan" <michael.logan(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 18, 2008
      
      
      Also, don't fly with your flaps down for very long.  Even at half full
      tanks, you will run out of fuel and the engine will quit.  Don't ask me how
      I know.
      
      Mike Logan
      Series 5 
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:54 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      Noel-
      I also have a clear vent line running up to my right tank, which is  
      equal in size to the left tank. However, I can see my vent line even  
      with the header tank behind the right side of the seat. My fuel line  
      and the vent line run parallel to the diagonal braces behind the  
      seat, and all I need to do is glance over my right shoulder  
      occasionally to check for fuel in both the clear glass Purolator  
      filter, and the clear vent line. I only *need* to do this when I know  
      that the fuel tanks are getting low, but I check it every so often  
      just out of habit. Pucker time comes when I allow myself to get low  
      on fuel and have to make a descent. Under these conditions...and I've  
      done this maybe 4-5 times (bad, Lynn, BAD)...like Guy suggested, just  
      leveling off for a moment will let some fuel fill the header, shut  
      off the light, and the pucker relaxes.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
      On Oct 17, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn:
      >
      > What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me  
      > practice as
      > part of a forced approach.  Even the certified spam cans have  
      > issues with
      > fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
      >
      > My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank..  The left tank is  
      > only
      > half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow.  I  
      > also have
      > a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the  
      > header starts
      > to run out long before it does.  When I install the 912 I was  
      > thinking about
      > relocating the header behind the seat.  In that location I will no  
      > longer be
      > able to see the vent line.
      >
      > Noel
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn  
      > Matteson
      > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      >
      >
      > I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
      > airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
      > fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
      > banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
      > I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
      > and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
      > my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
      > this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
      > what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
      > fuel more often.
      >
      > Lynn Matteson
      > Kitfox IV Speedster
      > Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
      > Sensenich 62x46
      > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
      > system
      >
      >
      > On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
      >> the fuel
      >> tanks. This is the culprit for  the uneven fuel flow problems in
      >> kitfoxes.
      >> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
      >> more fuel
      >> flow from one tank than the other.
      >>
      >> Jeff.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Read this topic online here:
      >>
      >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 18, 2008
      
      
      To keep it short...  Follow the plans and vent the header tank!  Forget
      about valves and breathers.  Venting to both tanks sounds interesting but
      will accomplish nothing except an increase in weight and complexity.
      
      
      Noel Loveys
      AME Intern, RPP
      Kitfox III-A
      Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 9:49 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      Steve.
      NO -NO -NO You do not understand.
      You are getting advice from someone who has no understanding of the 
      physics of fluid flow. You must vent the header. Valves in the header 
      tank vents are just plain crazy..
        Follow the instructions in the build manual. The factory guys are 
      real engineers and have thought thru many things you may not even 
      consider. And if you don't have the latest fuel system version go get 
      it. And if you have a flying system that is not the latest system 
      change it. As several have pointed out this in not the place to come 
      up with something that will kill you.
      
      Remember screwed up fuel systems cause the most downed Kitfoxes of 
      any other kind of failure. Probably because the builder did not 
      understand the factory setup and changed it to his own design. Or 
      just did not follow the instructions.
      
      Please Read Andys message below and try to understand it
      Paul
      ======
      Just as a word clarification, so that terms aren't used 
      incorrectly.  The fuel system in a Kitfox is "gravity feed" and fuel 
      pressure to the carb or engine fuel pump is "head pressure" from a 
      gravity fed fuel tank.  Strictly gravity only.  There is no "siphon 
      action".  Designers have to determine that the fuel tank is high 
      enough in normal flying/attitudes (nose high/nose low) and fuel line 
      size adequate to provide a certain fuel pressure or head pressure for 
      the fuel consumption of the engine used.  If your engine installation 
      requires additional pressure to the engine pump than head pressure 
      can provide, an electric pump must be installed prior to the engine 
      pump or carb (ala low wing aircraft).  Fuel line size and head 
      pressure to the engine is all that insures that an adequate supply of 
      fuel is maintained to the metering device, unless you have a fuel 
      pump located at each tank outlet to supply increased fuel flow.  Most 
      small aircraft under 140 hp, 3/8" line is used, that will that will 
      supply more enough fuel for engine consumption.  As engines get 
      larger, fuel line size goes up, 1/2", 5/8", etc.  The only time fuel 
      is "sucked" or "siphoned" from a tank is if you have a pump located 
      at the tank.
      
      It is extremely important that the fuel lines and the vent lines be 
      angled down to the header tank or on a constant slope, problem areas 
      are at the wing pivot and the horizontal routing to the header 
      tank.  Especially in the vent line.  Air and fuel must have an 
      unimpeded path and a way to get out and into the upper wing tank, if 
      both lines to one tank have a low or high spot  you could run into a 
      fuel lock situation on that side.  Installed correctly and under 
      normal flying and fuel conditions, the vent line has fuel in it and 
      should correspond to the level of fuel in the tank.  In a long, 
      steep, nose down descent with low fuel, your fuel pickup will be 
      higher than the fuel level in the tank, as the fuel runs to forward 
      to the front of the tank.  The tank is still vented, fuel to the 
      header tank is supplied only by the remaining fuel in the fuel line 
      from the pickup to the header tank.  Leveling off routinely will then 
      raise the fuel level above the fuel pickup/screen and will flow back 
      down into the header tank.  The air being displace by the fuel will 
      go up the vent line and into the fuel tank.  If the vent were blocked 
      then air would have to travel upstream against the fuel going down 
      into the header tank.  If it is on a constant slope this should not 
      cause a problem other than fuel will not fill the header tank as fast 
      as it has to make room for air in the line going up.  This is why the 
      vent line is important.
      
      If you look at aerobatic biplanes with a center section upper wing 
      mounted fuel tank, you will see a forward fuel pickup. This is for 
      nose down attitudes.  Most Cessna's have a forward pick up location, 
      we can't because of the folding wing design.  The fuel line would 
      have to run down the forward doorpost frame. (Which it does in a Cessna)
      
      There is nothing wrong with a single vent line to one tank or a vent 
      line to each tank.  Because we have a folding wing design we cannot 
      have a interconnecting vent line (wing tank-to-wing tank) like a 
      Cessna that they use to help even the fuel burn from each wing. In a 
      perfect world (no slip nor skid, wings level, no turbulence, etc) 
      Kitfox dual vent lines are used to keep fuel burn equal.  The fuel 
      vents on the "filler caps" provide a very slight positive pressure in 
      the tanks, but mainly to fill the void of used fuel.  Make sure the 
      caps are on correct and the gaskets are sealing.  One of the reasons 
      for the long periscope vent line on the cap is to get the vent into 
      static atmospheric air.  The low pressure on top of the wing where 
      the fuel cap is can cause siphoning of fuel, which is why a gasket 
      check is a good idea.
      
      The reason that the vent line from the header tank needs to be a 
      constant slope to the tank vent boss is to ensure that you don't 
      create a "trap" for air.  A dual vent line system helps to ensure 
      positive flow to the engine just incase one vent line were to become
      blocked.
      
      Depending on your engine installation it is possible run the fuel low 
      enough that there is not enough head pressure to supply the carb, 
      even though there may be fuel in the header tank.  I suggest a 
      standby electric fuel pump (Faucet 4-6 gph) be mounted below the 
      header tank outlet that can be turn on during takeoff/landing and low 
      fuel situations.  I installed one in my fuel system.  To insure 
      positive pressure.
      
      I would:
      I would check the fuel caps first to make sure they are not blocked, 
      pointing forward and the gasket seals.
      Ensure that the fuel and vent lines to each tank are on a constant 
      slope to the tank.
      Verify that the fuel level in the vent line corresponds to the level 
      of fuel in the tank.
      
      Andy
      ============
      
      At 06:29 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:
      >
      >Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue.  What I am 
      >getting so far is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, 
      >but closing the venting will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP 
      >in some instances.  Would that be a accurate summary?
      >
      >--------
      >Steve Wilson
      >Huntsville, UT
      >Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
      >912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
      >Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
      >
      >
      >Read this topic online here:
      >
      >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
Date: 
Oct 18, 2008
      
      IMHO most fuel starvation will come from blocked cap breathers on the left
      tank.
      
      
      Sigtaturea
      
      
      Noel Loveys
      
      Campbellton, NL, Canada
      
      CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
      
      C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
      
      Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
      
      noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
      
      
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson
      Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 9:55 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
      
      
      Lots of examples Just do your homework
      
      Agree. Asymmetrical fuel flow from the tanks has nothing to do with
      starvation. Fixes for it are not necessary.  Just follow the details on the
      install and the issue will go away. Nice fat lines are also good and no
      restrictions in any of the lines are also good. No filter or other
      components in the header to tank lines helps that situation.
      Paul
      
      At 09:26 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:
      
      
      If as you suggest the header tank vent was OFF then in Lowell's example or
      other similar scenario the automatic refilling of the header tank would be
      prevented and air/fuel blockages of the two feed lines from the wing tanks
      WOULD likely slow or prevent flow to the header tank and encourage fuel
      starvation with adequate fuel remaining in the wings.
      
      Add my name to the many with asymetrical fuel flow from the tanks but no
      evidence of the header tank being deprived.  I don't have a low fuel warning
      but there are many out there to monitor the possiblity of starvation.  Were
      there any warnings that were triggered as a result of the asymetrical draw.
      What are the specifics of the "many crashes due to fuel starvation"?  Sounds
      like urban myth to me.
      
      John Kerr
      Classic IV, 912ul, 780 hours.
      Logan UT
      
      ====== UOTE>< /body> 
      
      
      Kitfox-List Email Forum -
       <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List> 
      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
      http://forums.matronics.com
      - List Contribution Web Site -
      -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
       <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> 
      http://www.matronics.com/contribution
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Header Tank Venting
From: 
"JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: 
Oct 18, 2008
      
      
      Andy Is Correct,
      
      Putting valves and closing the vent on the header tank is just plain dangerous
      and dumb.  Someone is giving out very bad and dangerous advice.  There are things
      that this " Bad Advice " person did not take into consideration.   It would
      take a lot of research and evidence before I would even think about changing
      the Kitfox design.  EAA has people very well versed in fuel systems, I would
      at least talk to some real experts before I changed a good and proven design.
      
      Mike
      
      --------
      "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
      have !!!
      
      Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9308#209308
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Note on Ethanol
From: 
"JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: 
Oct 18, 2008
      
      
      Making and Burning Ethanol as fuel is the greatest Environmental distster this
      planet has ever faced.   Noel is correct, producing ethanol takes more energy
      and creates more CO 2 than just burning the gasoline, but it get much worse  [Shocked]
      
      
      Being that we are now burning Food for fuel, to make up for the food shortage,
      Forests in Brazil, Malaysia and all over the world are being slashed at a much
      greater rate than ever before. The ethanol demand is driving this.  It takes
      enough corn to produce 20 gallons of ethanol to feed a person for a year, did
      we forget all about morality and the starving people on this planet ?     Why
      would we do such a stupid thing,  CORRUPTION.   Special interests, farmers votes,
      there is enough money behind this to make it happen, even though it is harming
      the planet immensely.  We have the best government money can buy. 
      
      I forgot to mention the most important aspect of ethanol, it causes problems when
      used in our airplanes  [Evil or Very Mad]
      
      Mike [Evil or Very Mad]
      
      --------
      "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
      have !!!
      
      Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9309#209309
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 18, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Note on Ethanol
      
      
      At 05:00 PM 10/18/2008, you wrote:
      >I forgot to mention the most important aspect of ethanol, it causes 
      >problems when used in our airplanes  [Evil or Very Mad]
      
      Thanks, Mike, for making this post at least tangentially aviation 
      related. However this thread was beat to death quite recently, so I 
      am going to ask you and others to take it off list.
      
      Thanks,
      
      
      Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 18, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Note on Ethanol
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Sat, October 18, 2008 5:00 pm, JetPilot wrote:
      >
      > Making and Burning Ethanol as fuel is the greatest Environmental distster this
      planet
      > has ever faced.   Noel is correct, producing ethanol takes more energy and creates
      > more CO 2 than just burning the gasoline, but it get much worse  [Shocked]
      
      clip clip
      
      This an interesting topic however, this is not the proper forum for it. It's a
      good
      idea to discuss closely related subject matter to the building and operating of
      a
      Kitfox and powering one. If the topic drifts too far off, the maillist will lose
      it's
      usefulness and some participants will lose interest. I don't think there needs
      to be
      silly restrictions on what you can discuss and quoting URLs for products we find
      seems
      fine to me too.
      
      Just for drill there is a nice section at the bottom of this page on Kitfox-List
      Usage
      Guidelines:
      
      <http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm>
      
      It's actually pretty good practice, IMHO, to follow these guidelines.
      
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Charles  Bloom" <kj7sr(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 
EGT's & Oil Temp
Date: 
Oct 19, 2008
      
      A question for those with 80hp Rotax 912's. What do you consider a 
      normal EGT and Oil temp when at cruise at about 5500rpm?
      Thanks
      Chuck
      
      Kitfox Model IV
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 19, 2008
From: 
Chuck Bloom <kj7sr(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 
Oil Temp & EGT temp.
      
      
      A question for those with an 80 ho Rotax 912. What do you look for as normal EGT
      and Oil Temp when cruising at about 5500rpm?
      Chuck
      Kitfox Model IV
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 19, 2008
Subject: 
Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
      
      EGT 1300 to 1400.  Oil temp should be 190 or above. I put  tape over half my 
      oil cooler to get the temp up.  Steve  Bennett
      
      
      In a message dated 10/19/2008 3:26:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
      kj7sr(at)earthlink.net writes:
      
      A question for those with 80hp Rotax 912's. What  do you consider a normal 
      EGT and Oil temp when at cruise at about  5500rpm?
      Thanks
      Chuck
      
      Kitfox Model IV
      
      
      (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List) 
      (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) 
      
      
      **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
      Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out 
      (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"steve(at)newcap.net" <steve(at)newcap.net>
Date: 
Oct 20, 2008
Subject: 
Prop/Nose Wheel
      
      
      About 4 years ago my partner and I purchased a kitfox classic IV with a
      Rotax 912 80 hp. that was to be used in our flight school in Baldwin
      Ontario.  The kit was about 60-70% complete when we bought it.  After
      trying to have it registered as an advanced ultralight and then as a home
      built we have given up and will register it as a basic ultralight.  It
      should be painted this week.  It is a tail dragger but would like to
      convert it to a nose wheel to make it easier to train on.  Does anyone know
      of someone converting from a nosewheel to a tail dragger?  Also we still
      need a prop, what kind of prop works best with the 912 on a classic IV?
      
      Thank you,
      Steve Hall (Toronto Aerosport)
      
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
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      http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
From: 
"wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>
Date: 
Oct 20, 2008
      
      
      The Rotax operators manual indicates the following for oil temp:
      Min: 120
      Max: 285
      Normal: 190 to 230
      
      I can't find anything in the manual regarding EGT. Mine runs a bit on the hot side
      around 1450. 
      
      I'm curious. Is 5500 what you usually cruise at? According to the manual, that's
      the max continuous rpm for the 912UL. Does it affect the tbo to run at that
      speed all the time? I generally run at 5100 to 5200 and between 25 and 27 inch/hg
      manifold pressure (depending on how big of a rush I'm in). 
      
      
      > A question for those with 80hp Rotax 912's. What do you consider a normal EGT
      and Oil temp when at cruise at about 5500rpm?
      
      
      --------
      Luis Rodriguez
      Model IV 1200
      Rotax 912UL
      Flying Weekly
      Laurens, SC (34A)
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9520#209520
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 20, 2008
From: 
SUE MICHAELS <michaega(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
      
      EGT -- look in (online) 912 installation manual under exhaust page 41.- N
      ormal range 1470f ---max 1560f--- take off 1616f.=0A=0AGeorge=0A=0A=0A
      =0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: wingnut <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>=0AT
      o: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:22:36 PM
      =0ASubject: Kitfox-List: Re: EGT's & Oil Temp=0A=0A--> Kitfox-List message 
      posted by: "wingnut" =0A=0AThe Rotax operators manu
      al indicates the following for oil temp:=0AMin: 120=0AMax: 285=0ANormal: 19
      0 to 230=0A=0AI can't find anything in the manual regarding EGT. Mine runs 
      a bit on the hot side around 1450. =0A=0AI'm curious. Is 5500 what you usua
      lly cruise at? According to the manual, that's the max continuous rpm for t
      he 912UL. Does it affect the tbo to run at that speed all the time? I gener
      ally run at 5100 to 5200 and between 25 and 27 inch/hg manifold pressure (d
      epending on how big of a rush I'm in). =0A=0A=0A> A question for those with
       80hp Rotax 912's. What do you consider a normal EGT and Oil temp when at c
      ruise at about 5500rpm?=0A=0A=0A--------=0ALuis Rodriguez=0AModel IV 1200
      =0ARotax 912UL=0AFlying Weekly=0ALaurens, SC (34A)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this 
      topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 952
      =========================0A
      ============
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
From: 
"wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>
Date: 
Oct 20, 2008
      
      
      Wow. So I'm actually running on the cold side at 1450. My Westach EGT gage only
      goes up to 1500. Does this mean that my carbs are running a little too rich?
      How does one adjust the EGT on a 912? Interesting that this is in the installation
      manual but not the operating manual.
      
      
      > EGT -- look in (online) 912 installation manual under exhaust page 
      > 41. Normal range 1470f -- max 1560f -- take off 1616f. 
      
      
      --------
      Luis Rodriguez
      Model IV 1200
      Rotax 912UL
      Flying Weekly
      Laurens, SC (34A)
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9539#209539
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
Date: 
Oct 20, 2008
      
      
      Louis,
      
      It has been long my understanding that the EGTs on a 912 are pretty much to 
      look at from time to time and wonder what the number means.  The carbs are 
      altitude compensating up to about 10,000 ft. as I recall.  The best check on 
      mixture is to look at the plugs.  This is problematic in a way, because we 
      usually check the plugs after idling back to the hangar after running them 
      hard in flight.  The idle and high speed jets are set separately.  I have 
      heard that it is wise, from time to time, check the plug color after flight 
      with minimal idle - like pulling to the side of a grass strip - you lucky 
      guys.
      
      Regarding the cruise RPM, the max cruise is 5500 and most of the guys I flew 
      with ran that or close to that as we allways flew at the speed of the 
      slowest airplane.   I also know folks that use that as a max RPM - Just flew 
      in a SeaRay that the guy maxes at 5300.  I have heard Eric Tucker say 5500 
      is fine for contiuous cruise.  I also understand that the biggest factor 
      with RPM and the 912, is running it too slow in cruise as torsional 
      vibration at the lower RPMs are not good for the gearbox.  Keep it over 5000 
      to 5100 minimum in cruise.
      
      Lowell Fitt
      Cameron Park, CA
      Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
      Currently focusing on the Left Wing Rudder Gapseal Cuffs and Landing Gear 
      Fairing
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>
      Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 2:39 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
      
      
      >
      > Wow. So I'm actually running on the cold side at 1450. My Westach EGT gage 
      > only goes up to 1500. Does this mean that my carbs are running a little 
      > too rich? How does one adjust the EGT on a 912? Interesting that this is 
      > in the installation manual but not the operating manual.
      >
      >
      >> EGT -- look in (online) 912 installation manual under exhaust page
      >> 41. Normal range 1470f -- max 1560f -- take off 1616f.
      >
      >
      > --------
      > Luis Rodriguez
      > Model IV 1200
      > Rotax 912UL
      > Flying Weekly
      > Laurens, SC (34A)
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9539#209539
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Prop/Nose Wheel
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      Curiosity killed the cat.... Satisfaction...
      
      What was the problem with registering as an amateur built??  Something to do
      with inspections??  BTW most of these planes (Kitfox, Avid Etc.) are
      conventional gear and students will probably have to convert when they get
      their own planes.  Training on conventional gear may not be all bad.
      
      Noel
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      steve(at)newcap.net
      Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:09 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Prop/Nose Wheel
      
      
      About 4 years ago my partner and I purchased a kitfox classic IV with a
      Rotax 912 80 hp. that was to be used in our flight school in Baldwin
      Ontario.  The kit was about 60-70% complete when we bought it.  After
      trying to have it registered as an advanced ultralight and then as a home
      built we have given up and will register it as a basic ultralight.  It
      should be painted this week.  It is a tail dragger but would like to
      convert it to a nose wheel to make it easier to train on.  Does anyone know
      of someone converting from a nosewheel to a tail dragger?  Also we still
      need a prop, what kind of prop works best with the 912 on a classic IV?
      
      Thank you,
      Steve Hall (Toronto Aerosport)
      
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      mail2web LIVE - Free email based on MicrosoftR Exchange technology -
      http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 20, 2008
From: 
John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Oil Temp & EGT temp.
      
      
      A question for those with an 80 ho Rotax 912. What do you look for as normal EGT
      and Oil Temp when cruising at about 5500rpm?
      Chuck
      Kitfox Model IV
      
      I can't give those numbers on mine right now but wanted to note that with the Ivoprop
      it seems to do best at 5000 RPM, I don't cruise it at 5500.
      
      JA KF IV Speedster 912UL
      
      __________________________________________________
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Kenneth and Alice Jones" <kmamjones(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: Oil Temp & EGT temp.
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      I just received the new 2008-2009 catalog from Lockwood Aviation. Page 160 
      shows UMA engine gauges with range markings specifically for the Rotax 912 
      and 912S.  The Oil Temp gauge shows green from 180 to about 230 degrees, 
      then yellow from 230 to  red line at about 270.  They show an EGT redline at 
      about 1600, with no with practically no yellow caution range.
      
      You may wish to call Lockwood to confirm this data.
      
      Ken Jones
      Waynesboro, PA
      Series 7 under construction
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "John Allen" <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>
      Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:39 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Temp & EGT temp.
      
      
      >
      > A question for those with an 80 ho Rotax 912. What do you look for as 
      > normal EGT and Oil Temp when cruising at about 5500rpm?
      > Chuck
      > Kitfox Model IV
      >
      > I can't give those numbers on mine right now but wanted to note that with 
      > the Ivoprop it seems to do best at 5000 RPM, I don't cruise it at 5500.
      >
      > JA KF IV Speedster 912UL
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Weiss Richard <MDKitfox(at)aol.com>
Subject: 
Re: Oil Temp & EGT temp.
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      In addition to the list experience, I suggest you check out the Rotax  
      website. They have the specifications for all temperatures and  
      pressures you may need, including those for instrument markings.
      
      Their website is: http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com
      
      Rick Weiss
      Series V Speedster, SkyStar S/N , 912S Power,
      Daytona Beach, FL
      MDKitfox(at)aol.com
      
      
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allen"  
      > 
      > To: 
      > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:39 PM
      > Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Temp & EGT temp.
      >
      >
      >>
      >> A question for those with an 80 ho Rotax 912. What do you look for  
      >> as normal EGT and Oil Temp when cruising at about 5500rpm?
      >> Chuck
      >> Kitfox Model IV
      >>
      >> I can't give those numbers on mine right now but wanted to note  
      >> that with the Ivoprop it seems to do best at 5000 RPM, I don't  
      >> cruise it at 5500.
      >>
      >> JA KF IV Speedster 912UL
      >>
      >> __________________________________________________
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Starter problems. Help!
From: 
"815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      Hi all,
      Well I thought I had my 582 starter problems figured out last week.  I went up
      last night to start it up and taxi it around a while.  It cranked over a couple
      of times, then stopped.  Lary Huntly, myself, and a friend troubleshot it for
      about 2 hours last night trying to figure out what is going on.  The selinoid
      seems to be OK, but the starter refuses to turn, even with a jump.  So it looks
      like I will have to remove the starter.
      
      What is the best way to get the starter out.  It looks like I will have to pull
      the motor.  Can I pull it out with the mount still atached?  That looks the easiest.
      Do i have to pull it all the way out, or can I unhook, just a few wires
      and hoses, and move it out just a few inches to get to it?
      
      Any insight would be appreciated.
      
      Larry, if you have anything to add, please do so.
      
      Andrew
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9638#209638
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bill Malpass" <malpass-architect(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: Starter problems. Help!
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      I just had to repair my starter, and believe me, it would be easier to 
      remove the engine to get to the starter than to try to repair while still in 
      the plane.
      
      Dont try to get at the starter from the cabin side,
      it is futile..............Got to take the engine out to repair. (good time
      to go ahead and do a decarb job on the pistons). Or other maintenance if 
      required.
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:02 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Starter problems. Help!
      
      
      >
      > Hi all,
      > Well I thought I had my 582 starter problems figured out last week.  I 
      > went up last night to start it up and taxi it around a while.  It cranked 
      > over a couple of times, then stopped.  Lary Huntly, myself, and a friend 
      > troubleshot it for about 2 hours last night trying to figure out what is 
      > going on.  The selinoid seems to be OK, but the starter refuses to turn, 
      > even with a jump.  So it looks like I will have to remove the starter.
      >
      > What is the best way to get the starter out.  It looks like I will have to 
      > pull the motor.  Can I pull it out with the mount still atached?  That 
      > looks the easiest.  Do i have to pull it all the way out, or can I unhook, 
      > just a few wires and hoses, and move it out just a few inches to get to 
      > it?
      >
      > Any insight would be appreciated.
      >
      > Larry, if you have anything to add, please do so.
      >
      > Andrew
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9638#209638
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
From: 
John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>
Subject: 
Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
      
      
      Hi Lowell,
      
      Referring to the Rotax 912 Operator's Manual 10.1.2.1 section for 
      performance data for variable pitch propeller, "Engine operation is 
      permitted without restriction between full throttle performance and 
      power requirement of the propeller, providing speed _over_ 5500 rpm is 
      restricted to 5 minutes". This is a rather long winded statement which 
      says that you can run the engine at full throttle and 5500 rpm all day 
      and every day if you wish. This is how I run my engine when I am on a 
      long trip and the engine always sounds very happy.
      
      Interestingly, I can find no reference in the same manual to EGT values 
      or limits. Perhaps one can assume that Rotax do not think this is very 
      important on the 912/912S engines.
      
      Cheers, John
      Mooresville, NC
      912S engine, 620 hours
      
      ORIGINAL MESSAGE
      
      From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
      Louis,
      
      --------
      Regarding the cruise RPM, the max cruise is 5500 and most of the guys I flew with
      ran that or close to that as we allways flew at the speed of the slowest airplane.
       I also know folks that use that as a max RPM - Just flew in a SeaRay
      that the guy maxes at 5300.  I have heard Eric Tucker say 5500 is fine for contiuous
      cruise.  I also understand that the biggest factor with RPM and the 912,
      is running it too slow in cruise as torsional vibration at the lower RPMs are
      not good for the gearbox.  Keep it over 5000 to 5100 minimum in cruise.
      Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Oil Temp & EGT temp.
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      John,
      
      I largely ignored the EGT gauge as it never approached the 1600 max.  Then 
      there are gauge variations and thermocouple location variations and then 
      needle postions in the carburetor etc.  I don't think you can find a normal. 
      Mine tended to run in the mid 1400s though.  Regarding oil temps.  The oil - 
      at least for a while - should be slightly above the boiling point of water 
      to help clear moisture from the oil.  With the typical oil cooler set-up in 
      the Kifox, it is sometimes a problem getting the oil temp up there.  With my 
      Model IV, the typical cruise temp was about 190.  I could get it higher in 
      climb.  I think you will find that most that have the oil cooler will put a 
      touch of tape on the cooler to help raise temps in the cooler months, and 
      some even in Summer.  The reason I opted for the smaller oil cooler was 
      because, most of the airplanes at the factory fly-in when I was at that 
      stage had tape covering most of the cooler surface.  And this was late 
      Summer.  I eventually went to cockpit adjustable oil cooler shutters as even 
      the smaller oil cooler was a bit much.  I ran them mostly closed.
      
      Lowell
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "John Allen" <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>
      Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:39 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Temp & EGT temp.
      
      
      >
      > A question for those with an 80 ho Rotax 912. What do you look for as 
      > normal EGT and Oil Temp when cruising at about 5500rpm?
      > Chuck
      > Kitfox Model IV
      >
      > I can't give those numbers on mine right now but wanted to note that with 
      > the Ivoprop it seems to do best at 5000 RPM, I don't cruise it at 5500.
      >
      > JA KF IV Speedster 912UL
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Starter problems. Help!
      
      
      At 06:02 AM 10/21/2008, you wrote:
      >What is the best way to get the starter out.  It looks like I will 
      >have to pull the motor.  Can I pull it out with the mount still 
      >atached?  That looks the easiest.  Do i have to pull it all the way 
      >out, or can I unhook, just a few wires and hoses, and move it out 
      >just a few inches to get to it?
      
      Andrew,
               It's surprisingly easy to get a 582 out, once you've 
      committed to do so. It takes me about 30 minutes. I've done it 
      myself, but of course it's easier if you have two. You can remove the 
      mount with the engine, but I think that's harder. After disconnecting 
      the exhaust at the elbow, the start cable and grounds and charge 
      circuits, and the coolant tubes, I disconnect the carbs and lay them 
      against the firewall. I have the side engine mount and have found 
      it's easiest if I remove the left rear lord mount support from the 
      engine. The other three I leave on the engine. It's then pretty easy 
      to muscle the engine out forward. Note that you don't have to remove 
      the prop if you have a stand for the engine that will keep it safe. 
      (AKA work bench.) If I have two I wrap the engine with line which 
      goes over a 2x4 which we lift with our shoulders. This leaves our 
      hands free to manipulate the engine. If you have a hoist, so much the better.
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 2200
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      Here's the info on the Electroair direct fire ignition  
      (www.electroair.net) system that I installed on my Jabiru 2200 engine  
      in my Kitfox. First off, some history....why did I go with an after- 
      market ignition system instead of the stock Jabiru ignition?....I  
      thought there might be a better/more modern way to fire the plugs  
      than the old system, and I became tired of having to change rotors  
      after the recommended 200 hours of use. Also, I was reluctant  
      (stubborn) to glue the rotors on as recommended. After having found  
      that it was indeed necessary to glue them on, and having some success  
      using that method, I decided...during a rebuild of the engine...that  
      I would leave all the distributor components off when reassembling  
      the engine, and go with the Electroair direct fire system.
      
      Electroair had begun development on a component to replace one of the  
      Jabiru distributors.  This would retain the other distributor as the  
      other half of the redundant ignition system. I, being stubborn,  
      wanted to do away completely with the Jabiru ignition, and asked  
      Electroair if they would design a system that would use a trigger  
      wheel and two magnetic pickups, similar to their 6-cylinder engine  
      systems. They would do this, but I had to make my own bracket to hold  
      the two pickups, as they did not have access to a Jabiru engine for  
      designing the prototype bracket. I agreed to this and ordered the  
      ignition kit.
      
      To make a long story short (and to create some drama for a possible  
      future magazine article), I got the system installed, and it is  
      working beautifully. There were some minor "growing pains" as we  
      sorted out some installation issues, but these are in the past, and I  
      am now flying with the assurance that I won't be bothered down the  
      road with loose rotors, loose distributor caps, leaking distributor  
      shaft seals, and scored shafts that I have experienced in the past.
      
      The kit originally arrived weighing about 13 lbs, and by cutting the  
      harnesses and spark plug wires to a more suitable length for my  
      airplane, I got the weight down to about 11 lbs. I removed the Jabiru  
      distributors, drive gears, caps, rotors, coils, and plug wires,  
      totaling exactly 5 lbs. So the increase in weight for the Electroair  
      system was about 6 lbs...a small weight penalty for such a modern  
      dependable ignition system, and one that allows for future ignition  
      modifications as well, which I will be looking into.
      
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 578hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 2200
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
      
      OK - so now how much for the Lynn Matteson version??
      
      Gary
      
      Gary Algate
      SMC, Exploration
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
      
      Lynn Matteson 
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      22/10/2008 05:16 AM
      Please respond to
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com, jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com, 
      jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com
      cc
      
      Subject
      Kitfox-List: Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 2200
      
      
      Here's the info on the Electroair direct fire ignition 
      (www.electroair.net) system that I installed on my Jabiru 2200 engine 
      in my Kitfox. First off, some history....why did I go with an after- 
      market ignition system instead of the stock Jabiru ignition?....I 
      thought there might be a better/more modern way to fire the plugs 
      than the old system, and I became tired of having to change rotors 
      after the recommended 200 hours of use. Also, I was reluctant 
      (stubborn) to glue the rotors on as recommended. After having found 
      that it was indeed necessary to glue them on, and having some success 
      using that method, I decided...during a rebuild of the engine...that 
      I would leave all the distributor components off when reassembling 
      the engine, and go with the Electroair direct fire system.
      
      Electroair had begun development on a component to replace one of the 
      Jabiru distributors.  This would retain the other distributor as the 
      other half of the redundant ignition system. I, being stubborn, 
      wanted to do away completely with the Jabiru ignition, and asked 
      Electroair if they would design a system that would use a trigger 
      wheel and two magnetic pickups, similar to their 6-cylinder engine 
      systems. They would do this, but I had to make my own bracket to hold 
      the two pickups, as they did not have access to a Jabiru engine for 
      designing the prototype bracket. I agreed to this and ordered the 
      ignition kit.
      
      To make a long story short (and to create some drama for a possible 
      future magazine article), I got the system installed, and it is 
      working beautifully. There were some minor "growing pains" as we 
      sorted out some installation issues, but these are in the past, and I 
      am now flying with the assurance that I won't be bothered down the 
      road with loose rotors, loose distributor caps, leaking distributor 
      shaft seals, and scored shafts that I have experienced in the past.
      
      The kit originally arrived weighing about 13 lbs, and by cutting the 
      harnesses and spark plug wires to a more suitable length for my 
      airplane, I got the weight down to about 11 lbs. I removed the Jabiru 
      distributors, drive gears, caps, rotors, coils, and plug wires, 
      totaling exactly 5 lbs. So the increase in weight for the Electroair 
      system was about 6 lbs...a small weight penalty for such a modern 
      dependable ignition system, and one that allows for future ignition 
      modifications as well, which I will be looking into.
      
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 578hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 
      system
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      It is especially true to check the plugs with as little idling as possible
      on the two stroke engines where oil is burned with the fuel.
      
      Noel
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
      Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:13 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
      
      
      Louis,
      
      It has been long my understanding that the EGTs on a 912 are pretty much to 
      look at from time to time and wonder what the number means.  The carbs are 
      altitude compensating up to about 10,000 ft. as I recall.  The best check on
      
      mixture is to look at the plugs.  This is problematic in a way, because we 
      usually check the plugs after idling back to the hangar after running them 
      hard in flight.  The idle and high speed jets are set separately.  I have 
      heard that it is wise, from time to time, check the plug color after flight 
      with minimal idle - like pulling to the side of a grass strip - you lucky 
      guys.
      
      Regarding the cruise RPM, the max cruise is 5500 and most of the guys I flew
      
      with ran that or close to that as we allways flew at the speed of the 
      slowest airplane.   I also know folks that use that as a max RPM - Just flew
      
      in a SeaRay that the guy maxes at 5300.  I have heard Eric Tucker say 5500 
      is fine for contiuous cruise.  I also understand that the biggest factor 
      with RPM and the 912, is running it too slow in cruise as torsional 
      vibration at the lower RPMs are not good for the gearbox.  Keep it over 5000
      
      to 5100 minimum in cruise.
      
      Lowell Fitt
      Cameron Park, CA
      Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
      Currently focusing on the Left Wing Rudder Gapseal Cuffs and Landing Gear 
      Fairing
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>
      Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 2:39 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: EGT's & Oil Temp
      
      
      >
      > Wow. So I'm actually running on the cold side at 1450. My Westach EGT gage
      
      > only goes up to 1500. Does this mean that my carbs are running a little 
      > too rich? How does one adjust the EGT on a 912? Interesting that this is 
      > in the installation manual but not the operating manual.
      >
      >
      >> EGT -- look in (online) 912 installation manual under exhaust page
      >> 41. Normal range 1470f -- max 1560f -- take off 1616f.
      >
      >
      > --------
      > Luis Rodriguez
      > Model IV 1200
      > Rotax 912UL
      > Flying Weekly
      > Laurens, SC (34A)
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9539#209539
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Prop/Nose Wheel
From: 
"JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      
      Steve is right on wanting to convert his Kitfox to a nosewheel airplane.  Training
      on a tailwheel airplane is just asking to have your plane destroyed.   The
      accident statistics don't lie, they don't have opinions, they just tell cold
      hard reality.   There is a really good reason that the Hull insurance on a taildragger
      is about twice as expensive as for a plane with tricycle gear.  I know
      most " He Men Pilots " here will disagree with me on this subject, but again
      the facts and the numbers leave no room for argument or opinions on this issue.
      
      
      Kitfox sells a nosewheel option for the Series 7 SS.   You might possibly buy the
      nosewheel from them.   I am looking at several props for my Kitfox with a 912-S,
      a warp drive, a powerfin, a Nu Form which Flight Designs CT uses, and possibly
      the new sensenich composite prop if its not to expensive.  I would not
      buy an IVO, and I would not put an old technology outdated wooden prop on my kitfox
      if they were giving them away for free.
      
      Mike
      
      --------
      "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
      have !!!
      
      Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9753#209753
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Vic Baker" <vr_baker(at)nvbell.net>
Subject: 
First Flight
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
      
      N377KJ first flight today.    20 minutes of just plain (plane) fun then 
      back to garage for a careful lookover.   5 years (this month) from 
      receipt of kit  -  with a lot of handholding from John and Debra McBean 
      (bless them!).
      
      Aircraft is "by the book" with no mods.
      
      A few numbers (for you numbers folks)
      Conventional (tailwheel) gear.
      750 lbs mains
      70 lbs tail
      20 gal fuel
      pilot (me) 210 lbs
      Wants nose up trim  for power off approach.  No problem.  (have manual 
      servo trim tabs on elevator)
      Set 5000 RPM (5800 available) for TO and climb.  Lift off in the blink 
      of an eye  (be ready!)   OAT 11 Deg C,  field elevation 4700'.  Climbing 
      at 600 fpm at 65 mph indicated.
      (this is no C150!)
      
      3 point landing,  keep it straight!  (after flying with John McBean, 
      decided to place alignment tape on glare shield - easy to come in 
      crabbed left)     
      
      
      Ok, me?  66 years old.  600 hour pilot.  Have not flown for 20 years.    
      Took 20 hours instruction this summer in Super Cub.  One hour with John 
      in Tri gear  Kitfox.     No problem handling this airplane,  likes thumb 
      and forefinger on stick with arm resting on leg.  
      
      
      Vic Baker
      S7 912S Warp 100% 
      Carson City, Nv
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Nose Wheel vs Tailwheel
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
      
      Contentious subject - Given the type of flying I do Tailwheel was the best 
      choice for me. I have approx 700hrs on TW and about 30 on NW and really 
      don't consider one more "Manly" than the other.
      
      Both require training and skill - it's just that tailwheels take more 
      Skill!
      
      Ha Ha Couldn't help myself
      
      Gary
      
      (For those that are laughter challenged - This was a joke)
      
      Gary Algate
      Classic 4 Jab2200
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 2200
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
      
      
      Mine was right in the neighborhood of $1800, Gary.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 578hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
      On Oct 21, 2008, at 6:21 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
      
      >
      > OK - so now how much for the Lynn Matteson version??
      >
      > Gary
      >
      > Gary Algate
      > SMC, Exploration
      > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 2200
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
      
      Lynn
      
      You must be on the West Coast otherwise it's well past your bed time.
      
      It sounds like you've worked all of the bugs out of your ignition  system 
      are you happy now with the overall engine performance after the rebuild?
      
      regards
      
      Gary
      
      Gary Algate
      SMC, Exploration
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 21, 2008
From: 
Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Nose Wheel vs Tailwheel
      
      
      >Contentious subject...
      
      And one that's been beaten to death here more than once.  The 
      original post was asking about the process of converting landing 
      gear, not the relative merits of doing so.  If you don't have some 
      input on how to switch out the gear then please don't add to this 
      thread.
      
      Mike G.
      Kitfox List Administrator
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 2200
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
      
      
      I'm in Michigan, Gary...the reason for the late posting time was a  
      late afternoon nap that left me staring at the ceiling come bedtime,  
      so I got up to check for computer traffic. : )
      
      Yes, the engine is running strong now, and really rips once I push  
      the throttle in at take-off. Whether it's the ignition, or the fresh  
      engine, I can firewall the throttle and it accelerates immediately. I  
      was just looking for the information...I think from Jabiru...that  
      says to open the throttle slowly, taking over 1 second to go to WOT.  
      I used to have to do this but no longer...it accelerates immediately,  
      and pulls strongly. Hopefully it is still tight (and it is) from the  
      rebuild, and will gain power as it breaks in.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 578hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  
      system
      
      
      On Oct 22, 2008, at 12:48 AM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn
      >
      > You must be on the West Coast otherwise it's well past your bed time.
      >
      > It sounds like you've worked all of the bugs out of your ignition   
      > system are you happy now with the overall engine performance after  
      > the rebuild?
      >
      > regards
      >
      > Gary
      >
      > Gary Algate
      > SMC, Exploration
      > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
From: 
Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
Subject: 
Re: First Flight
      
      Vic, Congrats on your accomplishment. Reports like yours gives those of us that
      are still building the inspiration needed. To know that some day we will run
      out of parts and actually fly this thing is needed. Keep us updated on how she
      performs. 
        Dan B
        Mesa, AZ
        KF-IV, 912S
      
      Vic Baker  wrote:
                N377KJ first flight today.    20 minutes of just plain (plane) fun then
      back to garage for a careful lookover.   5 years (this month) from receipt
      of kit  -  with a lot of handholding from John and Debra McBean (bless them!).
         
        Aircraft is "by the book" with no mods.
         
        A few numbers (for you numbers folks)
        Conventional (tailwheel) gear.
        750 lbs mains
        70 lbs tail
        20 gal fuel
        pilot (me) 210 lbs
        Wants nose up trim  for power off approach.  No problem.  (have manual servo
      trim tabs on elevator)
        Set 5000 RPM (5800 available) for TO and climb.  Lift off in the blink of an
      eye  (be ready!)   OAT 11 Deg C,  field elevation 4700'.  Climbing at 600 fpm
      at 65 mph indicated.
        (this is no C150!)
         
        3 point landing,  keep it straight!  (after flying with John McBean, decided
      to place alignment tape on glare shield - easy to come in crabbed left)     
         
         
        Ok, me?  66 years old.  600 hour pilot.  Have not flown for 20 years.    Took
      20 hours instruction this summer in Super Cub.  One hour with John in Tri gear
      Kitfox.     No problem handling this airplane,  likes thumb and forefinger
      on stick with arm resting on leg.  
         
         
        Vic Baker
      S7 912S Warp 100% 
      Carson City, Nv
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
COPPERSTATE Fly-In Casa Grande, AZ
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
      
      Anyone else going?
      
      Pete
      Hell Paso, TX
      III SN1000 912
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
From: 
W Duke <n981ms(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: First Flight
      
      Vic congratulations.- Nothing compares to that first flight.- Interesti
      ngly enough, by the time of my first flight 400+ hours ago I had not comple
      tely run out of parts ;-)
      
      Maxwell Duke
      S6/TD/IO240
      Dublin, GA
      
      --- On Wed, 10/22/08, Dan Billingsley  wrote:
      
      From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: First Flight
      Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 9:43 AM
      
      
      Vic, Congrats on your accomplishment. Reports like yours-gives those of u
      s that are still building the inspiration needed. To know that some day we 
      will run out of parts and actually fly this thing is needed. Keep us update
      d on how she performs. 
      Dan B
      Mesa, AZ
      KF-IV, 912S
      
      Vic Baker  wrote:
      
      
      N377KJ first flight today.--- 20 minutes of just plain (plane) fun th
      en back to garage for a careful lookover.-- 5 years (this month) from r
      eceipt of kit- ---with a lot of handholding from John and Debra McBea
      n (bless them!).
      -
      Aircraft is "by the book" with no mods.
      -
      A few numbers (for you numbers folks)
      Conventional (tailwheel) gear.
      750 lbs mains
      70 lbs tail
      20 gal fuel
      pilot (me) 210 lbs
      Wants nose up trim- for power off approach.- No problem.- (have manua
      l servo trim tabs on elevator)
      Set 5000 RPM (5800 available) for TO and climb.- Lift off in the blink of
       an eye- (be ready!)-- OAT 11 Deg C,- field elevation 4700'.- Cli
      mbing at 600 fpm at 65 mph indicated.
      (this is no C150!)
      -
      3 point landing,- keep it straight!- (after flying with 
      
      
      =0A=0A=0A      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
From: 
"Rick" <wingsdown(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Subaru EA-81 engine
      
       FYI  just listed on Ebay, EA-81 turbo engine block prepped by Ram
      Performance. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem
      <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STR
      K:MESELX:IT&item=260304450779>
      &ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=260304450779
      
      Rick 
      
      Thanks to those that purchased items I had previously listed. Saving for
      a new kit.  :)
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 2200
From: 
gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Date: 
Oct 23, 2008
      
      Good News Lynn
      
      I still haven't done any more about verifying my prop pitch and trying the 
      new one but will advise once I get a chance to do so
      
      Regards
      
      Gary
      
      Gary Algate
      SMC, Exploration
      Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
      This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. 
      Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by 
      persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
      you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by 
      telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender 
      does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of 
      this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
      
      
      Lynn Matteson 
      Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      22/10/2008 09:06 PM
      Please respond to
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      To
      kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      cc
      
      Subject
      Re: Kitfox-List: Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 2200
      
      
      I'm in Michigan, Gary...the reason for the late posting time was a 
      late afternoon nap that left me staring at the ceiling come bedtime, 
      so I got up to check for computer traffic. : )
      
      Yes, the engine is running strong now, and really rips once I push 
      the throttle in at take-off. Whether it's the ignition, or the fresh 
      engine, I can firewall the throttle and it accelerates immediately. I 
      was just looking for the information...I think from Jabiru...that 
      says to open the throttle slowly, taking over 1 second to go to WOT. 
      I used to have to do this but no longer...it accelerates immediately, 
      and pulls strongly. Hopefully it is still tight (and it is) from the 
      rebuild, and will gain power as it breaks in.
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 578hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 
      system
      
      
      On Oct 22, 2008, at 12:48 AM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
      
      >
      > Lynn
      >
      > You must be on the West Coast otherwise it's well past your bed time.
      >
      > It sounds like you've worked all of the bugs out of your ignition 
      > system are you happy now with the overall engine performance after 
      > the rebuild?
      >
      > regards
      >
      > Gary
      >
      > Gary Algate
      > SMC, Exploration
      > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
From: 
jerry evans <kitfox555(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Towing a banner?
      
      Has anyone ever towed a banner behind the Kitfox? If so what are the pros and cons
      in doing this ? Thanks for any input.
      
      
      Jerry Evans 
      KitfoxII
      Magalia Calif.
      N582'er'
      kitfox 555
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
From: 
"Cecil Stokesberry" <stokesc(at)wildblue.net>
Subject: 
Received my AW Cert
      
      Finally got all the loose ends done and got my
      special airworthiness certificate for N161CP
      Mod IV 582 C gearbox GSC prop.
      I had a local EAA technical counselor inspect the plane
      for the FAA readiness inspection before the DAR did the
      FAA Certification inspection.
      All in all a very smooth and pleasent inspection.
      I now get to test fly it in a 50 mi radius from my home
      airport which is "Timber Basin Airpark" a private grass
      strip southeast of Sandpoint, Idaho... Hopefully I can do
      some flying before the snow flies.  I haven't flown a
      tail-tragger for about 30 years - wish me luck.
      This was an off and on project for 16 years.
      I did have another airplane during this time so I was still
      flying during the building process.
      Comments from this list have been very helpful to me
      while building my Kitfox.
      Thank you all for your comments on building and flying
      a Kitfox.
      
      Cecil Stokesberry
      N161CP
      Yellow with maroon stripes.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 22, 2008
From: 
Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
Subject: 
Re: Received my AW Cert
      
      
      At 07:29 PM 10/22/2008, you wrote:
      >Hopefully I can do
      >some flying before the snow flies.
      
      Talk to some of the folk on this list. Lots of skiers here. You could 
      keep flying through the winter.
      
      
      Guy Buchanan
      San Diego, CA
      K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Snow? was Electroair direct fire ignition system in a
      Jabiru 2200/snow skis
Date: 
Oct 23, 2008
      
      
      Snow, what's that?  It's going to be 85 at the Copperstate flyin in Casa 
      Grande, AZ and a bone chilling 50 in the morning when I wake up under the 
      wing of my Kitfox.
      
      Pete
      Hell Paso, TX
      III-912-Grove
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
      Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:32 AM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electroair direct fire ignition system in a Jabiru 
      2200/snow skis
      
      
      >
      > Enjoy it while it lasts, Gary....there's a forecast for snow flurries  for 
      > Lower Michigan next Tuesday,....... 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Towing a banner?
From: 
"Joel" <foxfloatflyer(at)hotmail.com>
Date: 
Oct 23, 2008
      
      
      Experimental Amateur-Built Operating Limitations (From 8130.2F) 
      state the following operating limitations shall be prescribed to experimental amateur-built
      aircraft: among other limitations applied to EAB aircraft
      (20) This aircraft must not be used for glider towing, banner towing, or intentional
      parachute jumping.
      
      --------
      Joel Mapes Kitfox 5 912 ULS Aerocomp amphibs
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210007#210007
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Bryan Quinton" <bughntr(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Flaperon End Caps
Date: 
Oct 23, 2008
      
      I need to replace the end seals/caps on the flaperons on my model II and 
      was looking for any good ideas for material, techniques etc. Have seen 
      wood and/or foam used but was looking for the best ideas.
      
      Thanks
      Bryan Q
      Model II
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 23, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Flaperon End Caps
      
      Bryan, Try Murle Williams._www.MurleWilliamsAviation.com_ 
      (http://www.MurleWilliamsAviation.com) 
       In a message dated 10/23/2008 7:09:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
      bughntr(at)comcast.net writes:
      
      I need to replace the end seals/caps on the  flaperons on my model II and wa
      s 
      looking for any good ideas for material,  techniques etc. Have seen wood 
      and/or foam used but was looking for the  best ideas.
      
      Thanks
      Bryan Q
      Model II
      
      
      (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List) 
      (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) 
      
      
      **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
      , 
      no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! 
      http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Flaperon End Caps
Date: 
Oct 24, 2008
From: 
"Perkins, Mike" <Michael.Perkins(at)Rauland.com>
      
      I used basswood on my flaperon endcaps. It's a little harder and more
      durable than balsawood, but still very easy to sand and shape. 
      
      
      - Mike Perkins
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 24, 2008
From: 
Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Flaperon End Caps
      
      while my mod 2 has fiberglass over foam the gas drains under the wing only 
      need too leek one time and you run- the risk on needing to replace- the
      m
      
      --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Bryan Quinton  wrote:
      From: Bryan Quinton <bughntr(at)comcast.net>
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaperon End Caps
      Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 11:10 PM
      
      
      I need to replace the end seals/caps on-the 
      flaperons on my model II and was looking for any good ideas for material,
      
      techniques etc. Have seen wood and/or-foam used but was looking for the
      
      best ideas.
      -
      Thanks
      Bryan Q
      Model II
      
      
      =0A=0A=0A      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Flaperon End Caps
Date: 
Oct 24, 2008
      
      
      Bryan,
      
      Since the list is so lethargic of late, I thought I might offer a long 
      winded suggestion.  If you are comfortable with fiberglass, this is a trick 
      I learned while working on the neighbor's Lancair IV.
      
      Cover the inside end of the flaperon (for about an inch) with vinyl tape. 
      This will likely be the hardest part.   Electricians tape does fine.  Extend 
      the tape out a bit.  you might want to put some tape on the outside edge as 
      well to protect the outside suface.
      
      Take a couple of pieces of fiberglass cloth of appropriate size and lay them 
      on a piece of about 2 mil vinyl film about six inches larger than the 
      fiberglass cloth on all sides.  Pour enough epoxy or polyester resin on it 
      to fully saturate the cloth.  Put another piece of vinyl film on top of the 
      sandwich and with a squeegee or a flat piece of wood, or a roller, squeegee 
      as much of the resin out of the cloth as possible.  Cut around the 
      fiberglass to get rid of the excess resin.  Wearing gloves, remove the top 
      layer of vinyl and position the cloth over the end of the flaperon.  Remove 
      the other piece of vinyl film and gently press the cloth into the end of the 
      flaperon to create a rounded concave shape.  You may have to cut some of the 
      excess cloth away to prevent sag, unless you can work with the flaperon 
      vertically from a ladder or the back stairs.  When this cures, press inward 
      on the edges, breaking the composite from the tape in the flaperon and 
      remove.  When out, trim to the edge impression of the flaperon and you have 
      the end piece for the opposite flaperon.
      
      Do the same thing on the other flaperon for the end piece for the first 
      flaperon.  This will give a nice rounded end and it will be very light, but 
      will need some surface finishing with super fill, bondo or resin and 
      microballoons.  Glue the ends in with epoxy.
      
      This technique works also if a clearance bubble is needed, in a cowl for 
      instance.  Just cut the clearance hole and place the fiberglass sandwich 
      over the hole from the inside and shape by hand.  More than two layers would 
      be needed on the cowl, though.  In this case, prep the inside with sandpaper 
      to remove surface contamination and allow the bubble to bond to the cowl. 
      The excess is sanded away with a Dremel and a sandpaper drum and faired in 
      on the outside with micro.  For cutting the flaperon end, a Dremel using a 
      thin diamond disk does the trick very nicely.  In the two and a half years 
      we spent on the Lancair, we used up three Dremels and lots of diamond disks.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: <Sbennett3(at)aol.com>
      Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 4:39 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flaperon End Caps
      
      
      Bryan, Try Murle Williams._www.MurleWilliamsAviation.com_
      (http://www.MurleWilliamsAviation.com)
       In a message dated 10/23/2008 7:09:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      bughntr(at)comcast.net writes:
      
      I need to replace the end seals/caps on the  flaperons on my model II and 
      was
      looking for any good ideas for material,  techniques etc. Have seen wood
      and/or foam used but was looking for the  best ideas.
      
      Thanks
      Bryan Q
      Model II
      
      
      (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List)
      (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
      
      
      **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your 
      favorites,
      no registration required and great graphics  check it out!
      http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 24, 2008
From: 
Charles Boccaccio <charlieboccaccio(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Towing a banner? YES
      
      I use my Kitfox III regularly to tow banners along the beaches of Puerto Va
      llarta, Mexico. I'll post a link so all can see my kitfox performing an aer
      ial banner pick up. I have-three banner-hook release mechanisms install
      ed on the belly of the airplane so I can pick up and-fly-three seperate
       banners with out having to land.
      -
      Charlie, Kitfox III, serial 889, Puerto Vallarta, Mexico
      
      --- On Thu, 10/23/08, jerry evans  wrote:
      
      From: jerry evans <kitfox555(at)sbcglobal.net>
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Towing a banner?
      Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 5:04 AM
      
      
      Has anyone ever towed a banner behind the Kitfox? If so what are the pros a
      nd cons in doing this ? Thanks for any input.
      
      
      Jerry Evans 
      KitfoxII
      Magalia Calif.
      N582'er'
      kitfox 555
      
      
      =0A=0A=0A      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 24, 2008
Subject: 
Re: Flaperon End Caps
From: 
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      
      
      On Fri, October 24, 2008 6:43 am, Dee Young wrote:
      > I used fur and it worked just also.
      >
      > Dee Young
      > Model II
      
      You've got to be kidding! Fur? I just can't quite visualize that.
      
      -- 
      Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      PAF Consulting Engineers
      Office 425.440.9505
      Cell 425.241.1618
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"JC Propeller Design" <propellerdesign(at)tele2.se>
Subject: 
Re: Flaperon End Caps
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
      
      
      I can,
      
      fur, fura, furu (Pinus sylvestris) scandinavian name
      
      Jan
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 8:32 AM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flaperon End Caps
      
      
      > 
      >
      >
      > On Fri, October 24, 2008 6:43 am, Dee Young wrote:
      >> I used fur and it worked just also.
      >>
      >> Dee Young
      >> Model II
      >
      > You've got to be kidding! Fur? I just can't quite visualize that.
      >
      > -- 
      > Paul A. Franz, P.E.
      > PAF Consulting Engineers
      > Office 425.440.9505
      > Cell 425.241.1618
      >
      >
      > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
      > signature database 3554 (20081025) __________
      >
      > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
From: 
Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no>
Subject: 
RE: Towing a banner? YES
      
      > From: Charles Boccaccio [charlieboccaccio(at)yahoo.com] 
      > I use my Kitfox III regularly to tow banners along the beaches of Puerto Vallarta,
      > Mexico. I'll post a link so all can see my kitfox performing an aerial banner
      pick up.
      
      That would be nice, Charlie. I am still unsure if I can ever again fly my Kitfox
      after my heart attack and I was wondering if I should buy a hang glider and
      have my son use the Kitfox as a tow plane. I was thinking that the Kitfox III
      two tubes used to fasten the dorsal fin could be used for a towing mechanism.
      
      Cheers,
      Michel Verheughe
      Norway
      Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 .... grounded.
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
RE: Towing a banner? YES
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
      
      
      Sounds like the "Fox is able to do the job just make sure it's legal in your
      part of the world.
      
      Noel
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
      Verheughe
      Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 5:31 AM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Towing a banner? YES
      
      > From: Charles Boccaccio [charlieboccaccio(at)yahoo.com] 
      > I use my Kitfox III regularly to tow banners along the beaches of Puerto
      Vallarta,
      > Mexico. I'll post a link so all can see my kitfox performing an aerial
      banner pick up.
      
      That would be nice, Charlie. I am still unsure if I can ever again fly my
      Kitfox after my heart attack and I was wondering if I should buy a hang
      glider and have my son use the Kitfox as a tow plane. I was thinking that
      the Kitfox III two tubes used to fasten the dorsal fin could be used for a
      towing mechanism.
      
      Cheers,
      Michel Verheughe
      Norway
      Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 .... grounded.
      
      
      

      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.c
      om/Navigator?Kitfox-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
      bution
      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
From: 
Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no>
Subject: 
RE: Towing a banner? YES
      
      > From: Noel Loveys [noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]
      > Sounds like the "Fox is able to do the job just make sure it's legal in your
      > part of the world.
      
      Of course, Noel. Towing banners, etc. is not legal for ultralights in Norway, because
      considered as a commercial activity. Ultralights (equavalent to your Sport
      Pilot license) are pretty much like radio amateurs, we can build and use but
      not commercially. But ... you knew that! :-)
      
      Anyway, light aircraft and even trikes are used here to tow hang gliders. But,
      of course, you need to be checked out for that and the interesting point is that
      you must be able to fly a weight shift hang glider in order to tow one. That's
      the law.
      
      Cheers,
      Michel Verheughe
      Norway
      Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
From: 
"JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
      
      
      I am building a Kitfox SS, I am located in Miami so I need to do everything possible
      to protect from corrosion. First I will be sloshing the inside and painting
      the outside of the wing spars with a 2 part epoxy primer as recommended by
      some. What is the best Epoxy primer to use for this ???? I will be covering with
      Poly Fiber system, is the epoxy primer sold by Poly Fiber the best I can use
      ?
      
      My fuselage is powder coated at the factory. I have heard about using Tube Seal
      inside the tubing, but am not sure if I am more likely to cause problems drilling
      holes in the fuselage tubes to get the tube seal in ?? If the tubes are sealed
      on the ends where the welds are, than I think I would be better off not
      doing anything.
      
      Is there anything I am missing here, anything else I could do to protect against
      corrosion before I build ?
      
      Thanks,
      
      Mike
      
      --------
      "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
      have !!!
      
      Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210258#210258
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
From: 
"Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
      
      
      Mike, I used what came with my kit.  In 1994 that was poly fiber 2 part epoxy chromate
      primer.  I think that has been discontinued due to the health hazard.
      Whatever you use it needs to be compatible with the poly fiber covering system.
      
      Back then the wing struts came still open on the bottom (fuselage) ends. they may
      still be that way.  The instructions were that they be sealed with  structural
      adhesive.  Some builders slosh the inside of the struts with linseed oil before
      sealing them up.
      
      --------
      Tom Jones
      Classic IV
      503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
      Ellensburg, WA
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210276#210276
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
      
      The two part epoxy primer should be ok for the inside of the spars.
      Actually if your plane is kept in a hanger out of rain I doubt you would
      need anything in the spars.  Aluminium will form its own oxide coating which
      protects it as long as it doesn't get wet.  For the weight that is involved
      prime it if it makes you feel happier.  The nice thing about the two part
      primer is it won't dissolve with the other finishing chemicals.
      
      
      As for the fuselage that's a different quintal of fish.  I recommend
      drilling one small hole 1/16 " close to the top of the frame on the inside.
      Use a small syringe to inject about a cup or two of double boiled linseed
      oil into the frame.  Put a small screw into the hole and then rotate the
      frame in every possible direction for about a week.  (change the rotation
      daily) Then drain the linseed oil out the same hole into a can.  (Turn the
      frame upside down).  Replace the screw with a little epoxy around it to seal
      the hole.  There are a few things to know about linseed oil.  One is it will
      never dry until it comes in contact with air.  The driest it will get inside
      your frame is the consistency of a gel so you don't need to re inhibit your
      frame at a later date. 
      
      
       Linseed oil likes to migrate... it will on its own wick into every nook and
      cranny of the frame from the inside and inhibit any corrosion that can form
      in there.  The biggest thing to remember about using linseed oil is it will
      spontaneously combust if you allow it to drip on a floor and then wipe it up
      with a rag.  It usually takes about fifteen minutes to break into fire (from
      a wet/damp rag) and I can guarantee you it will produce a lot of white
      smoke.  If you have to wipe up any drips put the  rag outside in a fire
      proof rag bin.  Funny thing is in a dish or can it will not spontaneously
      combust.  It needs the larger surface area a cloth gives.
      
      
      Sigtaturea
      
      
      Noel Loveys
      
      Campbellton, NL, Canada
      
      CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
      
      C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
      
      582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
      
      noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
      Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 3:40 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
      
      
      I am building a Kitfox SS, I am located in Miami so I need to do everything
      possible to protect from corrosion. First I will be sloshing the inside and
      painting the outside of the wing spars with a 2 part epoxy primer as
      recommended by some. What is the best Epoxy primer to use for this ???? I
      will be covering with Poly Fiber system, is the epoxy primer sold by Poly
      Fiber the best I can use ?
      
      
      My fuselage is powder coated at the factory. I have heard about using Tube
      Seal inside the tubing, but am not sure if I am more likely to cause
      problems drilling holes in the fuselage tubes to get the tube seal in ?? If
      the tubes are sealed on the ends where the welds are, than I think I would
      be better off not doing anything.
      
      
      Is there anything I am missing here, anything else I could do to protect
      against corrosion before I build ?
      
      
      Thanks,
      
      
      Mike
      
      
      --------
      
      "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
      could have !!!
      
      
      Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210258#210258
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
From: 
"JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
      
      
      Thanks for the suggestion Noel, that brings a question to mind...  Is there a place
      in all the joints in the fuselage for oil to flow through ?  I thought that
      many of them might be closed off with metal.  Would I not have to drill a hole
      in almost every other tube vertical tube in the fuselage to get this stuff
      in there ?  I have this stuff from Aircraft Spruce called Tube Seal that is made
      for corrosion protection of aircraft tubing.  More expensive than linseed
      oil, but I'm hoping it will work better.  
      
      There will most definitely be times when my plane is out in the weather...   I
      hope just during cross countries, and rainstorms, but it may turn into longer
      than that.  Hangers here in Miami cost 650 a month at the small GA airport, that
      is after you do the three year wait for one [Evil or Very Mad]
      
      Thanks for the warning on Spontaneous Combustion, that would have really sucked
      to burn down my house :(   But then again, this new knowledge could also lead
      to hours of entertainment  [Wink]
      
      Mike
      
      --------
      "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
      have !!!
      
      Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210288#210288
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
      
      
      Having welded on a fuselage frame, I strongly believe that if you drill one 
      small hole in one portion of the frame for introducing the oil, that tube 
      and that tube only will be protected.  Every tube has it's own welded end, 
      that is every tube is separated by the joint weld - almost all are butt 
      welded.  The longerons might be continuous on their length but the cross 
      braces are entirely separate.  How do I know?  I moved the shoulder harness 
      attachment points to a position I liked a bit better and if I didn't drill a 
      hole at the weld point, the heated air within the tube would blow a hole in 
      the tube near the weld.  For my money, especially if the frame is well 
      coated - epoxy primer, or powder coat - I would leave that part alone.
      
      That said, though, there have been reports in the past of the powder coat 
      lifting, blistering or light dustings of corrosion on the surface as if 
      pinpoint defects were in the powder coat.  This was years past and I suspect 
      the factory has addressed this issue with better surface prep before the 
      powder coating, but, to put it succintly, I wish my new old kit was not 
      powder coated.
      
      Lowell
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
      Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 3:49 PM
      Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
      
      
      > The two part epoxy primer should be ok for the inside of the spars.
      > Actually if your plane is kept in a hanger out of rain I doubt you would
      > need anything in the spars.  Aluminium will form its own oxide coating 
      > which
      > protects it as long as it doesn't get wet.  For the weight that is 
      > involved
      > prime it if it makes you feel happier.  The nice thing about the two part
      > primer is it won't dissolve with the other finishing chemicals.
      >
      >
      > As for the fuselage that's a different quintal of fish.  I recommend
      > drilling one small hole 1/16 " close to the top of the frame on the 
      > inside.
      > Use a small syringe to inject about a cup or two of double boiled linseed
      > oil into the frame.  Put a small screw into the hole and then rotate the
      > frame in every possible direction for about a week.  (change the rotation
      > daily) Then drain the linseed oil out the same hole into a can.  (Turn the
      > frame upside down).  Replace the screw with a little epoxy around it to 
      > seal
      > the hole.  There are a few things to know about linseed oil.  One is it 
      > will
      > never dry until it comes in contact with air.  The driest it will get 
      > inside
      > your frame is the consistency of a gel so you don't need to re inhibit 
      > your
      > frame at a later date.
      >
      >
      > Linseed oil likes to migrate... it will on its own wick into every nook 
      > and
      > cranny of the frame from the inside and inhibit any corrosion that can 
      > form
      > in there.  The biggest thing to remember about using linseed oil is it 
      > will
      > spontaneously combust if you allow it to drip on a floor and then wipe it 
      > up
      > with a rag.  It usually takes about fifteen minutes to break into fire 
      > (from
      > a wet/damp rag) and I can guarantee you it will produce a lot of white
      > smoke.  If you have to wipe up any drips put the  rag outside in a fire
      > proof rag bin.  Funny thing is in a dish or can it will not spontaneously
      > combust.  It needs the larger surface area a cloth gives.
      >
      >
      > Sigtaturea
      >
      >
      > Noel Loveys
      >
      > Campbellton, NL, Canada
      >
      > CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
      >
      > C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
      >
      > 582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
      >
      > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
      > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 3:40 PM
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
      >
      >
      > I am building a Kitfox SS, I am located in Miami so I need to do 
      > everything
      > possible to protect from corrosion. First I will be sloshing the inside 
      > and
      > painting the outside of the wing spars with a 2 part epoxy primer as
      > recommended by some. What is the best Epoxy primer to use for this ???? I
      > will be covering with Poly Fiber system, is the epoxy primer sold by Poly
      > Fiber the best I can use ?
      >
      >
      > My fuselage is powder coated at the factory. I have heard about using Tube
      > Seal inside the tubing, but am not sure if I am more likely to cause
      > problems drilling holes in the fuselage tubes to get the tube seal in ?? 
      > If
      > the tubes are sealed on the ends where the welds are, than I think I would
      > be better off not doing anything.
      >
      >
      > Is there anything I am missing here, anything else I could do to protect
      > against corrosion before I build ?
      >
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      >
      > Mike
      >
      >
      > --------
      >
      > "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
      > could have !!!
      >
      >
      > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210258#210258
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
      
      
      I wonder if any thought has been given to drilling a small hole into  
      the main tube right where the "to-be-added" tube will intersect it?  
      This would insure that the flow of the rust/corrosion inhibiter would  
      be able to flow freely throughout the entire airframe. Maybe this is  
      standard practice, I don't know...if not, why not?
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  
      ignition system
      
      
      On Oct 25, 2008, at 10:17 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
      
      > 
      >
      > Having welded on a fuselage frame, I strongly believe that if you  
      > drill one small hole in one portion of the frame for introducing  
      > the oil, that tube and that tube only will be protected.  Every  
      > tube has it's own welded end, that is every tube is separated by  
      > the joint weld - almost all are butt welded.  The longerons might  
      > be continuous on their length but the cross braces are entirely  
      > separate.  How do I know?  I moved the shoulder harness attachment  
      > points to a position I liked a bit better and if I didn't drill a  
      > hole at the weld point, the heated air within the tube would blow a  
      > hole in the tube near the weld.  For my money, especially if the  
      > frame is well coated - epoxy primer, or powder coat - I would leave  
      > that part alone.
      >
      > That said, though, there have been reports in the past of the  
      > powder coat lifting, blistering or light dustings of corrosion on  
      > the surface as if pinpoint defects were in the powder coat.  This  
      > was years past and I suspect the factory has addressed this issue  
      > with better surface prep before the powder coating, but, to put it  
      > succintly, I wish my new old kit was not powder coated.
      >
      > Lowell
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 25, 2008
From: 
James Shumaker <jimshumaker(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: 
Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
      
      Lynn=0A=0AI understand that Sean D Tucker (acro pilot) has all the tubes (i
      n the Oracle Challenger) drilled at the intesection and then the inhibitors
       are introduced and then nitrogen under pressure is introduced.- Then a p
      ressure gauge in installed.- Any loss of pressure is a cause for concern.
      - So yes it is done.- =0A=0AJim Shumaker=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Mess
      age ----=0AFrom: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>=0ATo: kitfox-list@matroni
      cs.com=0ASent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 8:48:30 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kitfox-
      List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????=0A=0A--> Kitfox-Lis
      t message posted by: Lynn Matteson =0A=0AI wonder if any 
      thought has been given to drilling a small hole into- =0Athe main tube ri
      ght where the "to-be-added" tube will intersect it?- =0AThis would insure
       that the flow of the rust/corrosion inhibiter would- =0Abe able to flow 
      freely throughout the entire airframe. Maybe this is- =0Astandard practic
      e, I don't know...if not, why not?=0A=0ALynn Matteson=0AKitfox IV Speedster
      =0AJabiru 2200, 579.1hrs=0ASensenich 62x46=0Aflying again (17 hrs) after re
      build, and new Electroair direct-fire- =0Aignition system=0A=0A=0A=0AOn O
      ct 25, 2008, at 10:17 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:=0A=0A> --> Kitfox-List message
       posted by: "Lowell Fitt"- =0A> =0A>=0A> Having wel
      ded on a fuselage frame, I strongly believe that if you- =0A> drill one s
      mall hole in one portion of the frame for introducing- =0A> the oil, that
       tube and that tube only will be protected.- Every- =0A> tube has it's 
      own welded end, that is every tube is separated by- =0A> the joint weld -
       almost all are butt welded.- The longerons might- =0A> be continuous o
      n their length but the cross braces are entirely- =0A> separate.- How d
      o I know?- I moved the shoulder harness attachment- =0A> points to a po
      sition I liked a bit better and if I didn't drill a- =0A> hole at the wel
      d point, the heated air within the tube would blow a- =0A> hole in the tu
      be near the weld.- For my money, especially if the- =0A> frame is well 
      coated - epoxy primer, or powder coat - I would leave- =0A> that part alo
      ne.=0A>=0A> That said, though, there have been reports in the past of the
      - =0A> powder coat lifting, blistering or light dustings of corrosion on
      - =0A> the surface as if pinpoint defects were in the powder coat.- Thi
      s- =0A> was years past and I suspect the factory has addressed this issue
      - =0A> with better surface prep before the powder coating, but, to put it
      - =0A> succintly, I wish my new old kit was not powder coated.=0A>=0A> Lo
      - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admi
      ====
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
Date: 
Oct 26, 2008
      
      I own a Grumman canoe it has been in the water, mostly fresh, but with
      several trips on the briny blue.  I think it's a '47 or '48.  The only  mark
      on it wis where my father didn't pull it completely out of the water on one
      occasion.  This canoe built of aircraft grade aluminium has been left in the
      woods for years at a time and basically abused but at close to 60 years it
      is still nto leaking a drop and I'll put it up against any of the plastic
      canoes or other aluminium canoes on the market at this time.  In fact it
      appears to be  better built than some of the newer Grummans.  My point is it
      takes some doing to corrode aluminium.   That being said  I've also had to
      replace lots of aluminium in planes.  Surprisingly most of it was at one
      time or the other protected with zinc chromate, Alumiprep or Alodine.   The
      job I'm not loking lorward to is having to change out the washroom in any
      jetliner...  that is a known high corrosion area.
      
      
      If you are going to protect the interior of the spars a two part epoxy zinc
      chromate is not necessary because nothing has to stick to it.  Sloshing with
      a regular zinc chromate will give ample protection to the interior of the
      spars.  The exterior of the spars is another question.  The wing covering
      has to be able to have a strong bond with the spars.  This means a two part
      epoxy is required because it is not dissolved by the fabric adhesive.  Zinc
      chromate will actually protect the aluminium at a molecular level.  Apply it
      sparingly and be sure to wear rubber gloves when working with any zinc
      chromate.
      
      
      I put out a fire once in the iron ore concentrator plant in Labrador City.
      A painter had dropped a rag damp with linseed oil in a garbage can.  The
      garbage was dumped into a dumpster which was right beside the oil reservoir
      in the plant.  I happened to notice the smoke as I walked past and before I
      could get the extinguisher out and ready to operate flames were coming out
      of the dumpster ten to fifteen feet high... inside the plant.  I put out the
      fire and shortly afterward I had to explain why I had used the extinguisher.
      It was a large one on a dolly with fifty feet of hose.  When the safety
      technicians looked in the dumpster and the blisters on the paint of the oil
      reservoir I was considered the hero of the moment.
      
      
      Noel
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
      Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 10:40 PM
      Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
      
      
      Thanks for the suggestion Noel, that brings a question to mind...  Is there
      a place in all the joints in the fuselage for oil to flow through ?  I
      thought that many of them might be closed off with metal.  Would I not have
      to drill a hole in almost every other tube vertical tube in the fuselage to
      get this stuff in there ?  I have this stuff from Aircraft Spruce called
      Tube Seal that is made for corrosion protection of aircraft tubing.  More
      expensive than linseed oil, but I'm hoping it will work better.  
      
      
      There will most definitely be times when my plane is out in the weather...
      I hope just during cross countries, and rainstorms, but it may turn into
      longer than that.  Hangers here in Miami cost 650 a month at the small GA
      airport, that is after you do the three year wait for one [Evil or Very Mad]
      
      
      Thanks for the warning on Spontaneous Combustion, that would have really
      sucked to burn down my house :(   But then again, this new knowledge could
      also lead to hours of entertainment  [Wink]
      
      
      Mike
      
      
      --------
      
      "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
      could have !!!
      
      
      Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210288#210288
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: 
Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
Date: 
Oct 26, 2008
      
      All cluster joints should be open inside.  The strength is in the tube not
      the interior.  One hole in the frame should give access to the interior of
      the whole frame.  The only exceptions will be any brackets which may be
      welded to the frame.
      
      
      One thing about any resin or powder coat finish is that if there is ine
      little abrasion in the finish then it is possible to have a filliform
      corrosion to develop under the finish.  This type of corrosion can usually
      be repaired by sanding the affected area to remove corrosion and
      re-finishing.  There is a good section in AC43 on corrosion and anti
      corrosion methods.  Download a copy and have a read.
      
      
      Sigtaturea
      
      
      Noel Loveys
      
      Campbellton, NL, Canada
      
      CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
      
      C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
      
      582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
      
      noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
      Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:47 PM
      Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
      
      
      Having welded on a fuselage frame, I strongly believe that if you drill one 
      
      small hole in one portion of the frame for introducing the oil, that tube 
      
      and that tube only will be protected.  Every tube has it's own welded end, 
      
      that is every tube is separated by the joint weld - almost all are butt 
      
      welded.  The longerons might be continuous on their length but the cross 
      
      braces are entirely separate.  How do I know?  I moved the shoulder harness 
      
      attachment points to a position I liked a bit better and if I didn't drill a
      
      
      hole at the weld point, the heated air within the tube would blow a hole in 
      
      the tube near the weld.  For my money, especially if the frame is well 
      
      coated - epoxy primer, or powder coat - I would leave that part alone.
      
      
      That said, though, there have been reports in the past of the powder coat 
      
      lifting, blistering or light dustings of corrosion on the surface as if 
      
      pinpoint defects were in the powder coat.  This was years past and I suspect
      
      
      the factory has addressed this issue with better surface prep before the 
      
      powder coating, but, to put it succintly, I wish my new old kit was not 
      
      powder coated.
      
      
      Lowell
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      
      From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
      
      
      Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 3:49 PM
      
      Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
      
      
      > The two part epoxy primer should be ok for the inside of the spars.
      
      > Actually if your plane is kept in a hanger out of rain I doubt you would
      
      > need anything in the spars.  Aluminium will form its own oxide coating 
      
      > which
      
      > protects it as long as it doesn't get wet.  For the weight that is 
      
      > involved
      
      > prime it if it makes you feel happier.  The nice thing about the two part
      
      > primer is it won't dissolve with the other finishing chemicals.
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > As for the fuselage that's a different quintal of fish.  I recommend
      
      > drilling one small hole 1/16 " close to the top of the frame on the 
      
      > inside.
      
      > Use a small syringe to inject about a cup or two of double boiled linseed
      
      > oil into the frame.  Put a small screw into the hole and then rotate the
      
      > frame in every possible direction for about a week.  (change the rotation
      
      > daily) Then drain the linseed oil out the same hole into a can.  (Turn the
      
      > frame upside down).  Replace the screw with a little epoxy around it to 
      
      > seal
      
      > the hole.  There are a few things to know about linseed oil.  One is it 
      
      > will
      
      > never dry until it comes in contact with air.  The driest it will get 
      
      > inside
      
      > your frame is the consistency of a gel so you don't need to re inhibit 
      
      > your
      
      > frame at a later date.
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > Linseed oil likes to migrate... it will on its own wick into every nook 
      
      > and
      
      > cranny of the frame from the inside and inhibit any corrosion that can 
      
      > form
      
      > in there.  The biggest thing to remember about using linseed oil is it 
      
      > will
      
      > spontaneously combust if you allow it to drip on a floor and then wipe it 
      
      > up
      
      > with a rag.  It usually takes about fifteen minutes to break into fire 
      
      > (from
      
      > a wet/damp rag) and I can guarantee you it will produce a lot of white
      
      > smoke.  If you have to wipe up any drips put the  rag outside in a fire
      
      > proof rag bin.  Funny thing is in a dish or can it will not spontaneously
      
      > combust.  It needs the larger surface area a cloth gives.
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > Sigtaturea
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > Noel Loveys
      
      > 
      
      > Campbellton, NL, Canada
      
      > 
      
      > CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
      
      > 
      
      > C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
      
      > 
      
      > 582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
      
      > 
      
      > noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > -----Original Message-----
      
      > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
      
      > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
      
      > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 3:40 PM
      
      > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
      
      > Subject: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > I am building a Kitfox SS, I am located in Miami so I need to do 
      
      > everything
      
      > possible to protect from corrosion. First I will be sloshing the inside 
      
      > and
      
      > painting the outside of the wing spars with a 2 part epoxy primer as
      
      > recommended by some. What is the best Epoxy primer to use for this ???? I
      
      > will be covering with Poly Fiber system, is the epoxy primer sold by Poly
      
      > Fiber the best I can use ?
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > My fuselage is powder coated at the factory. I have heard about using Tube
      
      > Seal inside the tubing, but am not sure if I am more likely to cause
      
      > problems drilling holes in the fuselage tubes to get the tube seal in ?? 
      
      > If
      
      > the tubes are sealed on the ends where the welds are, than I think I would
      
      > be better off not doing anything.
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > Is there anything I am missing here, anything else I could do to protect
      
      > against corrosion before I build ?
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > Thanks,
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > Mike
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > --------
      
      > 
      
      > "NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
      
      > could have !!!
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > Read this topic online here:
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210258#210258
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
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      > 
      
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      > 
      
      > 
      
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: 
Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ????
Date: 
Oct 26, 2008
      
      
      Now that you mention it, I've heard that too. In that application,  
      the reason is to keep track of any cracks that might appear due to  
      stress, and he sure puts 'em under stress, but I was wondering if any  
      of the "common folk" airplanes...those that are tube frames, get the  
      "drill and weld" procedure to insure oil flow throughout. To be more  
      to the point of this Kitfox list, I wonder if Kitfoxes are done this  
      way.  John?
      
      Lynn Matteson
      Kitfox IV Speedster
      Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs
      Sensenich 62x46
      flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  
      ignition system
      
      
      On Oct 26, 2008, at 12:50 AM, James Shumaker wrote:
      
      > Lynn

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October 07, 2008 - October 26, 2008

Kitfox-Archive.digest.vol-gm

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